How AI will DISRUPT your Trust in God, Relationships, and Church with Nathaniel Baldock

In this conversation, Nathaniel Baldock joins us as we discuss what AI is going to Christians and our world as we unreflectively adopt it as a tool when it should truly been seen as a pseudo-person.

Nathaniel Baldock is an AI strategist, consultant, speaker, and educator based in Tauranga, New Zealand. He helps churches, schools, and mission-driven organisations navigate AI with clarity, ethics, and practical implementation.

Visit his website --https://www.nathanielbaldock.com/

00:00 Teaser
00:52 Nathaniel's journey to AI consulting
04:30 What is AI?
10:09 AI's ethical problems
15:31 The dangers of Anthropic's Mythos
25:59 AI use in 2026.
30:20 AI's inauthenticity
41:00 Will AI erase our humanity?
48:15 Should churches use AI?
57:50 Does AI distort human relationships?
1:04:08 How churches should talk about AI

Lunch on The Way is a podcast that deeply discusses Christianity, Church, Culture, and Jesus.
Available on ALL podcast platforms https://lunchontheway.buzzsprout.com/share

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Social media was coming for your attention, but AI is coming for your affection or your intimacy. You know, there's different versions of it. It's designed to get you. If we're not careful, people are gonna lose their framework of life. It tells them their life without them realizing because it's so relational and so sophisticated. We're conflating what AI is to actually being something trustworthy like God. What we're gonna lose is I think we we're gonna lose the idea that it's so smart in how it does it that we're we're gonna be tricked into thinking that we're still using it as a tool, but we're actually delegating a relationship to it.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

And so let's let's just pivot to the church and actual practicalities for a second.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

It's designed to aim for three things in who you are, and it knows that one of these will get you. Yeah, I mean, I'm a I'm a Filipino-born Kiwi with an American accent, and uh my wife's Canadian, and my two boys are born in Hawaii, and my daughter's born in New Zealand. So we're kind of all over the place, but my life has really been framed around discipleship, right? And at the core of that is hearing God's voice, you know, the element that makes relationship real. So I guess my journey in my 23 years in ministry has really been trying to find things that are what are things that are attacking that? Um, so for years it was just the basic idea that God speaks, and then that developed into that the idea of vocations. Um, I think one of the big problems is people don't, we don't have a robust modern days, we don't have a robust vision for vocation and why work matters. And for me, that's a core idea because if God doesn't speak or care about what you do in your day, it's really hard to have a long relationship when you're trying to, you know, it only matters on a Sunday. So that led 10 years of research in Hawaii where I worked on a Bible project. Um, Graham, to your what you were talking about and the the progression of those different uh um audio to scribe and that we had a whole presentation we did for a long time, which was then taking the step further to digital. And what does that mean to the Bible experience? Because we we actually um we created a Bible app that we googleified the Bible, which it's still there's no other Bible like it. We um at the word level, we added metadata tags, and so the app we produce actually was every Bible app is actually just a a fancy PDF, but it doesn't actually break it down. And so by tagging every word at a meta metadata level, it enabled you to do stuff that no one's ever done to a Bible before. And so we really were wrestling with what does this mean to Bible engagement? You know, can you, you know, you can search what the word peace, where the word peace is in chapters and verses, but but you know, never before could you search like when God is saying it to a woman in this century when the topic was economics, you know, so those kind of things. So we were in that space for 10 years and did a lot of research, uh crowdsourced research, um, observational research. So that was a really fun, innovative season for me. Um, and then after that, that led me to kind of then create um some courses around the vocation idea, really trying to make it really deliberately framed on God's nature and character, and that should work its way out into society through us. And so, you know, if God is just, then what does that mean for our economic for our economics and for our government systems? And what does it mean for us to to work with those things and be expressive of those and the incarnation of those? So, yeah, that and then anyway, so that was been my my journey. And then the AI place came along, and I just that became such an attack on relationship with God, again, based on the idea that if we in the church don't give value for why work matters and that God wants to speak and be involved in it, then AI is just gonna fill that space because you know on Sunday you'll go to hear the pastor speak, but then the rest of the week you'll get AI to answer all your needed questions. And I'm like, oh, this is a this is a fundamental problem that we it's a concern that it's gonna be hard to get people back to understanding why God matters if 90% of their weak AI is the best voice on it. So, anyways, that's kind of been a little bit of my journey back that I'm like, particularly for this next generation, uh we've gotta we've gotta reframe a lot of how we talk about this to they would see that your relationship with God is is amazing. It's far better.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

That's that's a great that's a great framing. And I think let's just launch into it from there. That's that's a phenomenal, Nathaniel. So I've been going down the the YouTube and podcast rabbit hole of AI the past two weeks just to prepare. And every single conversation is of an apocalyptic nature. You know, it's just like they bring in this expert who's a genuine expert credentially, and they're like, all right, so is this gonna be amazing or horrible? And they basically say the same thing. I don't know. Uh it could go either way. And so that conversation is everywhere, and I don't feel like we need to have that conversation because it's just it's purely speculative, right? It's like nobody knows. If nobody knows. But Graham and I are really excited to talk more about the the church side, the personal discipleship side. Uh should I I told Graham yesterday, I I want to be a Luddite, I want to reject the technology, but I know I can't reject the technology. Um it's like I so then what how should I actually incorporate AI into my life? And I think that's actually the wrong question because it's being incorporated without me even knowing in many areas. And uh so let's start from the beginning, just like at a base level, people might think they know what the answer to this question is, but let's just start from the bottom up. What exactly is artificial intelligence as we're interfacing within it through you know, anthropic chat GPT, and Google Gemini? Let's just say the big three.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah. I mean, gosh, even if you go down the YouTube rabbit trail and that, people describe it differently too, right? Um, because it has these uh different sort of aspects of it. But I think the most and most consequential framing of this that I've found um is really the difference between what a program is versus what AI is has been the most helpful thing. So I think some people would see AI as being a program because it's on our computer. But they're very different in the way that they were made, and that has huge implications. Um Microsoft Excel, all those things, they were built line upon line by a person with an intention and a goal and a framing. And, you know, when they produced the final, here's our product, here's our app, here's our whatever, everything had to be coded and built by somebody. And so there's that, there's that awareness. Um, the better way to understand AI is that it's it's more grown and maybe not incorrect to kind of think of it as a as a human would actually grow and develop too. There's there's some aspects of how AI is developing right now, which is not because someone designed it, but because it's getting trained on data, which is all of us. It's our own language that's being trained on, and it's kind of forming some of its own conclusions. Again, it's not thinking it as we would say it, but it's making connections in in a in a way, and it's growing the more that it does. So it makes more and more connections and more and more understandings. But I mean, the the basic idea is actually AI has been with us for a while. So pre-2017, it was already in some of our products that we were using. Uh predictive text, um, I think Grammarly had early versions of it. Even stuff like when you're doing a kayak search, there's some elements of that which is a model that is predicting what you might be asking and looking for it. Um, so it's been around for quite a while, but I think the the big change happened in 2017, and was where Google came out with a paper that described a new way of thinking about context. And maybe as far as a in in our Bible, in your audience uh way, it'd be kind of like the change that happened in 2017 went from AI being like every verse out of context and only a verse, you know. And so there's only so much intelligence it can get from a single verse. But as 2017 kind of moved on, this new way of understanding and computing it, it began to get increasing um context windows. So now the verse is in a chapter, in a book, in the whole Bible, and let's add in all the historical context as well. So its ability to predict answers and its um seeming intelligence and fist and sophistication just kind of has grown because of the context window. And so now it's able to hold kind of like one word in the context of not just that sentence, but now all of human data. And so the growing of it and then what it actually is doing is it's a very sophisticated predictive mathematical kind of algorithm, is kind of maybe the the most technical or least technical way to say it, depending on your framework. But yeah, that would be kind of some initial thoughts on and how describing it is helpful. So it grows. Absolutely. And and actually the the formula for it is more um more data and more compute. So that's why you see all of the compute is like the the the big warehouses that are that can actually think it through. The formula is the more data and the more compute space and size and capacity, the so more sophisticated it is. So that's why you see the race for everyone to build these data centers, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:38

So it's so is AI in the sense that um so the more I interact with my AI or or with a with a platform, the more that it grows in terms of its context and ability to draw across that my inputs, your inputs, another person's inputs in a kind of ecosystem of knowledge.

SPEAKER_00 10:04

Yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean, every individual person's um information that goes into it maybe doesn't have a huge consequential shift in it, but it is a strange product where we are actually prototyping and testing the product for them, and our good inputs into it is actually helping enhance its ability or their ability to sell it back to us. So yeah, it's just it is a bit of a strange thing like that. But I mean it's grown in everything that's online. And one of the dark sides of the early start of AI was actually a lot of countries, and this has happened in many industries in the beginning, but uh, for example, in Kenya, they were um how they were tasked with a lot of the original tagging. So it did begin with humans had to go through and actually draw boxes around a tree and say, this is a tree, and just do that thousands and thousands and thousands of times so that the original growing of these models could actually understand what it was looking at. Um so some dark stories in that journey, because you'd have to categorize everything on the internet and define it and name it. So many of the interviews of people there spent eight hours a day kind of you know, tagging beheadings, um, you know, personal films, suicide, you know, so so all of that, think about everything that's on the internet, has been the training. And if you were to think about how you would want to train your child, um having them just completely absorb the internet would be uh would not produce a great outcome as it in a human. And similarly, in this the way the AI is, it's having some similar negative effects in the way that it's made.

SPEAKER_02 11:39

Yeah, I've I I know that there's a lot of ethical complications because with with the obviously the training that initially happened, uh whether that's happening now is who knows. But um there's also the data data centers that are just taking up resources and energy and power, and towns basically are saying we don't want this, but the mayors are like, no, we need it. And there's so in Canada where where I come from, uh there's you want to go farther north because it's colder and it's easier to efficiently cool these data centers down. And so it sounds like there are a few ethical problems. Are there other ethical problems with this pursuit of more compute to help enhance the AI?

SPEAKER_00 12:21

Um, oh yeah, there's a whole range of things, right? I mean, the the the actual material needed for these centers. Um, some of the other, I mean, maybe not quite ethical, but some of the downstream effects. Um, a lot of our computing, consumer computing stuff, iPhones, all those are about to start going increasingly expensive because of the race for these huge factories. Um, it's taking all of our chips and our memory. So you'll notice that not quite ethical, but again, these are things that affect us, right? So um they're trying to build a better thing to sell us, but at the same time, we're paying for it in all of our products. Um so there's some of these, some of these sites they're building, it's like a five gigawatt plant, or is it a four gigawatt plant? There's so many different versions, but you know, four or five gigawatt sized plant is the equivalent of about four or five million people's electricity use, right? And so just the the impact of, and there's so many of those plants getting put in. There's you know, ones in New Zealand. So who covers the cost for that fuel? Who's there's there are the people who are very much like, wait a minute, you stole all of our data. So you built your product off of all of our content without us giving permission. You're using our resources without our permission. You're we're paying higher electricity rates for you to do this, and then we still have to pay for it and rent it back off of you, even though pretty much so that's some of where the ethical side goes. And the the problem with that, as well as all of those um systems, they have a three, four-year lifespan. Um, and they that's as long as they last. So it's not like you're building this new dam, you know, power station that's gonna last for 50 years. Every four years, I think, or so, these whole data centers have to be re-rebuilt. Um, the racks, the I mean, so that's a four years from now kind of problem we're about to face, where all the money that was raised to build this isn't, anyways, we're getting down the road. But so there's all I mean, it's just there's so many ideas for this that uh so it's just in terms of in terms of who's fronting that.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

So you took New Zealand, your data centers. Um I mean, we're paying high, we pay very high power rates here, I think. I mean, I just noticed our pill the other bill the other day. It's enormous.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

I've noticed it. It's uh the power is double they may have to be.

SPEAKER_03 14:38

So who's who's is that government pouring the money in? Who's who's the where does the money go? Is that power companies?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

Who I mean, somewhere along the line, those entities are kind of state enterprise owned, but this is I mean, this is where if you go down the YouTube rabbit trails, there's you know, there's all kinds of nefarious thoughts behind it. Or then there's just some practical realities of you know, a government signs a deal because it has incentives for the for our government to do that because we want to be in the AI race. But then the government itself doesn't really foot the bill. Maybe the the local you know electricity, you know, local family pays a higher electricity bill, but that doesn't work its way back into then you know a cheaper price for your AI tool. So that's where it's kind of like the strange thing. Um, and I know people there's a lot of places in the States where these these factories are going in where people are saying, hang on, how is this helping me? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:33

So when I was on the phone with you uh last week or a week or two ago, um, you talked about how Anthropics Cloud uh model, what, mythos or something, kind of like changed the game. And so you you talked about 2017, Google had published this paper that said that things can change radically around AI, and it has, and we all noticed it happened around 2021, 2022. And and we all thought that was amazing. All the AI conversations are starting. Can you kind of map that progression a little bit all the way up to what happened maybe this past month? And and what's what's worrying people, like what has actually changed materially that is shifting the conversation from oh, these are just really smart computers to oh, AI is a problem.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah. I mean, let me let me go quick through it because there's just it's crazy the speed and the development. But I mean, the the basic thing is from that initial idea, it was 2020 was when the first like chat GPT website kind of popped out. Oh no, sorry, that was when people got access to this AI model. Uh 2022 was when the first like public version. So yeah, 2022 is when people started to get their hands on it in a web, you logged in and you got into chat open AI. And that was, I can remember getting to that and being like, whoa, it responds back to you. Uh 2023 was when the app, chat GPT app, came out. Um, anthropic kind of arrived there. It's interesting, it's kind of like the Google Deep Mind was the kind of the first model, and then someone split off that and said, No, and then that created Chat GPT, and then someone's like, I don't like the way that that's being made, so they split off to make anthropic, and then that's split off. So it's kind of interesting how these models are all getting built, and then someone goes, I don't like this, it's not safe enough. I'm gonna build a safer version, and then we actually watch they become the same kind of like yeah, you know, the same problem as well. Um uh really then, yeah. So 2023, 24, you're going through stuff like AI is still really only doing bad math. Um, 2024 is when you added in voice vision and coding stuff. Um, started to get to uh they could create working code. I I built a uh Bible app in 2024 with one of the AI models, and it was still in the fit in the space where man, you had to know coding stuff to really help it out, right? It and I can't remember, I can remember one time I asked it to change um a font and it just entirely restructured my whole app that I've been six months building. So it had this like uh you know, elephant or whatever in a China shop kind of approach, and it just it would do what you asked, but do it in a horrible way. But but you know, the coding aspect became a really strong thing. Um, I think the big jump came in 2025. Um, when you started to get, I've got some stuff sort of just tracking down here. Yeah, um, yeah, I started to be able to write 100,000 lines of code and do it quite consistently. Um, but then the February is where, like you're saying, so just all this progression. I I felt like as I was watching it, I'd be like every three or four months, some big product would land and it would be really, really cool until February. And then in February, like two things happened at once. Uh actually three things kind of happened all at once. Chat GBT and Claude opened their new models. Um, the and they were they were a huge jump forward. They started going to having a thing called uh their context window or their their tokens that they could kind of keep in mind, started to get to like a one million token context window, which means it's incredible capacity to have like instant memory. So think of it like this at at February 2025, it had the capacity to have 15,000 pages of you know anything in its mind and have it in like in its frontal memory. And if you asked it for a sentence in that 15,000 pages or something, they were finding that sentence at like a 98% accuracy. So suddenly when it can think and hold all that stuff, so you could put your entire legal practices history in it and then ask for any minute detail and it could find it. So that was that jump to that context window in 2020 in February of this year, gosh, that was this year, um, made a huge difference. Um and then what was the next one? Yeah, so from there, then you had this uh Claude um Claude Google's one. Oh, sorry, sorry, Chat GPT's one. It was also the first model that had its own AI helped to build a lot of its own code, which is a scary kind of precedence to start sort of saying, where a lot of the coders were like, yeah, it built a lot of its own capacity. Um at the same time, this idea of AI agents kind of happened. So until now, you were directing everything in AI, you were telling to do something, and then it would get stuck and it would come back and you'd have to keep prompting. There was this thing called uh open claw, clawbot. There was a whole naming fiasco with it. But it was this first kind of viral thing that happened where you could actually delegate to an AI and it would go off and do things. And so the practical way you'd have that set up is you could actually have it set up in your WhatsApp or your Slack thread, and you could have five or six different personas of AI agents, and you could have like a group meeting with it for your business, and one was your accountant, one was your whatever, and you'd have like a little meeting, and then they would go off and act on your behalf. And this caused all kinds of crazy things to happen, good and bad, like similar to what happened to Graham with my emails where it glitched for you, and I was sending you a million emails. You know, someone would say, Hey, I need to increase my marketing, and it would take over their computers, messaging, and just start spamming everyone, just a million things, but it could act on your behalf. So that was a huge change, and that's really where the AI space is still going now. It's these agents that are able to do things on your behalf. Um, soon after that was the the big Claude model that then came shortly after, which was this one called Claude Mythos, which is quite a cool name. It is a cool name. And they knew that they Claude actually knew that it was dangerous enough that they self um protected how they released it to certain people. And um, those initial releases found all kinds of dangers. Like it was so powerful that the companies that were or the people that were testing it found um code uh breaches and things in some really basic software that runs a lot of our infrastructure that you know it if you use that model, you could actually hack in and cause some major problems. So the They um kind of realized that and hold and held off on that. But this is what happened just a few in June, then they released a dumbed down, slightly dumbed down version or a guardrail version of that in June called Fable. And I got onto that and it was a huge jump. Just you could do one shots remaking almost like Super Mario Bros. kind of thing. You put it one prompt in, and it would make um think of all the kids' games that are popular now, all these demos online, people are doing a paragraph prompt and it would work away for an hour or so and then come back with this fully interactive game. Um just crazy levels. Um and that was around for a couple a couple days, and then the US uh government uh shut that down because they themselves found, and there's different reporting on it, but um the one that I found talks about quite clearly is the NSA found there was a whole bunch of breaches into their system uh through this model. So that got shut down, and then a couple weeks later, actually just last week, it got released again with some better guardrails. But that those so the AI agent thing is now really kicking off, and there's so most of the models now are using subagents, and and they can run for up to 30 hours right now on their own, task after task, evaluate the completion, and then make a new task and keep going. It's a pretty big jump in capacity. Um, and my last comment on it is this is the litmus test of what it actually means. There's a bunch of people that I've been following, and for most of them, the comment they've come back to, and this is what I've found for myself all the models beforehand, the AI model itself would kind of tap out with your big quote request. You know, build me this website, and it would kind of get to a point where it would break or it would need you to fix it. Some of the guys that I'm watching right now, they're saying, I've given up. I I can't think of a big enough idea to ask these new models. It's it's too big. Like, and so I'm getting it's the limit is actually my ability to question it or ask it. So um it one example of just like how much more advanced this is. Uh, one of the guys on X that was demoing this, he had uh Fable, Claude Fable, use integrate with uh Google Earth and Google Maps and go through his whole city and look at every single house that had a veranda that didn't have uh a covering over it. And then using um sun data and all this kind of stuff, would calculate which ones would need a veranda, went through the whole city, then did a model of the house, 3D model of the house, a whole like architectural model drawn for what that house would look like with a new balcony over it, and essentially completely model this thing out and have uh a tool that you could go to every house, knock on their door, and say, Hey, have you ever thought of having a veranda? Here's the whole you know deal and sign on the dotted line and uh, you know, it's you know, I'll we'll build it for you. I mean, you just but people can't it takes a unique person to think enough to ask it to do something like that. I most of us are still just using it to like, you know, it's a replacement for Google. You know what I mean? So, you know, what's the weather in Vancouver right now? Well, that's it's it's it's a bit criminal, but I think a lot of people don't realize how how much more advanced the models have gotten because I think we're still talking to it like that. We're asking it a question. A lot of people are not even asking it to do their own the things that they can do or asking it to do things they can't do yet. So I think those are like the progressions. We're still just asking it a question, and we're not asking it to take over our tasks yet. Most people don't know how to do that, and then on top of that, we can't think of a bigger task than what we can do to ask it. So we're kind of in that place right now. Chat GPT just released their new model and it's crazy. So I it all the details are a bit silly, but they're just they are they're just happening more and more and more, and it's only gonna get more um sophisticated. So I'll pause it.

SPEAKER_03 26:01

So what are you what are you saying? You know, that's that's this level. What are you seeing in terms of I mean, the world is a global village, but New Zealand sits a long, long way away from from uh what are you saying just around you know, the everyday person, how this is being absorbed but not being realized? What would what does that look like? What do you see?

SPEAKER_00 26:24

Yeah, I mean, we'll get into maybe some more of the the pastor and the church side of things in a minute, but uh, I mean, as far as the global billet village, Chat GBT alone has 900 million weekly users. And those weekly users prompt two billion prompts a day. So I think about the the reach that social media had, but uh the adoption level and the engagement because it's a conversation is so much more sophisticated than just time wasting of social media. Do you know what I mean? So I I think that one thing that some of the the New Zealand statistics show is we as a country are a little bit more skeptical. A lot of the small businesses are still quite skeptical of it and slow, kind of slow adopters. And honestly, I think there's some wisdom in that. There's some big companies that have jumped all in and fired a lot of people, and they're kind of it's not quite returning the investment they thought. So there's the classic warning stories of companies that fired thousands of people and then they're kind of rehiring people, but they have to, you know, give a new title for the job so it doesn't look like they made a mistake. Um, so yeah, in my in my general conversations with people in New Zealand, I think I'm finding um there are the early adopters who are trying to work this out. And for most of people, I think they're using AI actually, not the newest models. They're just there's there's a base level of AI that's already smart enough to actually make um important help to our or fix important things in our workflow, you know, check your emails, do this inventory, those kind of things. And that doesn't take this fable model. The the normal Chat GPT stuff is already smart enough to help a lot of businesses to kind of take away some of those rudimentary tasks. Um, but I don't think there's a general understanding of how to do that. So when I talk to people, people are like, it's kind of cool, but they haven't been shown a really clear model of if I want to enhance my mail, my email system, or my client thing, or this, there's no generic way to do it. So everyone has a different way. A lot of people are adopting um through the Microsoft um co-pilot um uh way, because that has AI built into it, but it's not the most sophisticated model. So it's the I I've I don't even really have much experience with it because it's very frustrating for me, but it integrates everyone's work stuff, right? So people use it that way. But um I think Graham, the the way that so on a business work side, I think people are trying to figure it out. They are told they need to, but I think there's still a lot of uncertainty. However, internally in companies, a lot of people are using it in the shadow, kind of, and a little bit, and I think I forget the statistic, but I was looking even New Zealand statistics. There's a shame around there's a bit of a shame around I used AI. But some people that are using it in their workplace are finding it's helping them, but then they don't want to tell their boss or whatever that they're using it because they're not sure if it's allowed or what you know. So there's still a little bit of that. Well, I did all this with AI. Um and I think that's actually for me where there's a big concern right now because because it's done like that, there's no guardrails, there's no conversation, it's still anything that's taboo in society kind of festers, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah, it goes underneath. I mean, it's interesting. I was talking to my brother-in-law about this, so he's a um, I won't sort of say where he is, but um he he um manages you know a reasonable amount of of stuff, and so he he would just sort of say to me that and he uses AI, like he would just put in about five, six points and just write me an email. And he would use that all the time. That would be that I don't I mean, I don't think he's ashamed of that. I just think that's what he does. I think that's just a uh a pragmatism that sits in there. So I suspect that's that's across the board.

SPEAKER_02 30:23

Yeah. Yeah. I you see, even what you're like the the the shame element, I think is is actually kind of a little bit appropriate, which is kind of the point of this conversation that we're having, because it's like I it that wasn't me. Like what what is produced and what I'm signing my name to, it wasn't me. Um I I I I don't know how to describe this, like especially when we get to pastoral ministry and stuff. Uh I you might write the sermon yourself, but then like I've done it where I've put my outline to my sermon into uh Chat GPT and I basically asked it, uh, is there too much content in certain areas? If so, where would you where do you think I should put an illustration or a metaphor or something? And then one sermon, it gave me a an amazing metaphor that then became the metaphor for the entire sermon that structured it around, and it was really good. And I'm like, well, it was like 95% me, but the big point was Chat GPT's kind of connections within what I've written. And while it was good, I felt uncomfortable about it because I'm like, well, that wasn't that wasn't me. Can you kind of speak to that, that kind of shame of like this isn't me? And are we moving towards a society where people are okay with it not being me? Or is there like genuine pushback of like, how dare you use AI? That's not you.

SPEAKER_00 31:48

You know, it that this is the fascinating thing because everyone has a different grid for it, right? And I don't think that when you push people down through the grid, I don't think we've actually got to the deepest part of it. Um, because if you were to talk to a coder, someone using this to help code, I don't think there's any kind of like, it doesn't feel like I, you know, no, it's it's a coding aspect. So um, you know, I think there's a that we define it based on the different uses, but I think even some of those kind of like I mean it's similar to how we kind of did the sacred secular music for a while, right? Like, oh, this this type of music is not right. And then, but then if you actually go to the drummer's role and go, okay, drummer, he's making a rhythm and a beat. Well, how does that, you know, how does that all of a sudden become good or bad in in the different setting? And I think there can be, maybe, but uh so that's a discussion that I think I I'm not hearing, I don't see consensus on. Um, I think there's some things we get pretty clear on. They're like, okay, it shouldn't be this. But I I think it's actually a really helpful conversation. I I you go across the board, any faith-based or non-faith, it's stirring people to kind of really ask the deep fundamental purpose of what are we here for, which I think is amazing, right? Um, if AI can do, I mean, another analogy that that I heard someone talk about was, you know, like, why does it feel like a disingenuous thing? And it's kind of like signing up to go to the gym and then going to the gym and then paying someone else to do all the exercises for you. You know, there's just, you know, there's all these kinds of people we're trying to get these analogies for it or these images for it, because we're trying to describe how that feeling is and give a picture for it. And I I think it doesn't, I don't know, it's it's a hard one. Um I I think that I think an initial thing that maybe across the board is uh is disclosure, I think is an is an initial basic step. So I think people feel a little bit less um uh less like lied to or misled if someone's like, hey, this is what I did. So uh, you know, I think I think even even if someone did a whole, maybe not a sermon, I have a whole different perspective on the religious and pastoral role. And actually, I think we're meant to be the example of the opposite, the embodiment, you know, um um, you know, all of this stuff is trying to eliminate human weakness to try and become a God. And the the parallel is that you know, our God kind of actually stepped down from heaven into our weakness to do something redemptive. And so I think there's something to that idea that particularly if you're in church ministry role, there's something about your process that is actually meant to, I don't know, run from I mean it's interesting, it's interesting that because what you're describing there, Joey, is um I'm trying to analogy.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

So I'm a wood, I I love working with wood, I have tools, but the tools don't make the object. So we so you know, so with AI, to what extent and where on the continuum is it a tool that trans you know transforms into something that's not the tool, but I guess you lose your sense of the essence of what it is to be human.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

It's like in Harry Potter, if anyone's watched the films, let alone the books, um where the the witches and wizards get the you know the broom to sweep the house itself. So it's like you're not sweeping the house, the broom sweeping the house, and all you said was dude, all you do was a prompt.

SPEAKER_01 35:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:13

And and you're like, well, that's really efficient, that's really helpful. But then there's something that's not happening to you because you're not the one sweeping the floor. Some something something else is sweeping the floor, and you aren't changed as a result of that. And and I I think for the first time ever, not ever, but in a long time, that formation conversation is not just happening within churches and discipleship, it's happening on a global scale.

SPEAKER_03 35:37

Yeah. Yeah, I think that that's a good word um here, Joey, is formation. What is the formational process?

SPEAKER_00 35:43

Um, I mean, that ties into our identity and our value, right? And yeah, so if I mean the the I think the challenges coming to these same questions that I think are really good. Uh I mean, I I despite all the doom and gloom about about what's happening and what could happen, I actually think that if we understand that our role in the and the space we have in the church to to talk into this, I think it's the one of the most incredible open doors to talk about the fundamental nature of why we're here and what was lost and what can be regained and what was what was humanity meant to live like. Um yeah, so it's a it I think it really stirs it. But when you people, if peep, if people start losing, when you say it like that, people start losing their work as well, and there's that added thing, then your identity is it's not just that I can't do anything anymore. I'm actually not getting my status and society is removed. So I there are people that are gonna come quite quickly to a place where a lot of the social concept that we use to value ourselves is maybe breaking. And in that space, I think there's gonna be a lot of despair because society doesn't have an answer for that. I mean, the current AI, all the current AI ideas are AI is gonna help eliminate the need to work. I mean, that's what Sam Altman kind of talks about a lot, is this is a post-work era. And I'm like, oh man, actually, work is where we get a lot of our, you know, uh co-creating dignity. You know, there's this idea that humanity wasn't meant to just float around. We were the co-creating was part of where we formed and you know, we you know, those things. Not where we get our identity, but it's where we I don't know, you know, it's that place of formation and working is a bad idea.

SPEAKER_03 37:29

The notion of um loss of meaning, so purpose and the loss of meaning, um you know, human existence, that that humans exist with a sense of meaning and purpose, uh, whether to create. So the flip side of that kind of this abundant thing sits there as which is but you know, possibly ends up not that boredom is completely wrong though, but but but but meaninglessness is probably the better word in the midst of that, isn't it? It's a sense of meaninglessness. So um so where are you seeing this? You know, let's let's sort of turn to the pastoral thing. Where where are you seeing this, you know, in terms of churches? How are churches adopting AI or synthesizing or or sort of absorbing that without realizing it? I mean, I think churches absorb technology anyway without doing much theological thought around it. So I think that's a given.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Yeah, I I I mean, you guys are kind of uh bumping shoulders with pastors and um and the clergy a bit more than maybe I am locally in New Zealand at the moment. But uh Barna came out with some really important research on it. Again, it was the it came out in February, but it was done in November, which part of me is like, oh man, in AI, that gap is ginormous. But um they came out saying that um, so this is amongst about uh almost a 1500 you know sample size in America. So it's not necessarily descriptive of everywhere in the whole world, but um, they found that like 41% of pastors were using AI for Bible prep. Um, 64% uh found that they they were using in in sermon preparation of some kind. Um one in three trust AI spiritual advice like a pastor. That was from um uh uh yeah, adults in the States in their survey. Um a flip side to this is that they found that 12% of pastors feel comfortable to talk about it or they know enough about it to teach about it. Um, but and in the same survey, one in three Christians said they want their pastor to give AI guidance to like to talk about what to do with this technology. So I mean, it's not quite your question, but it's in the whole pastor space. I think there's this huge gap where people are saying, hey, pastor, what about what should I be thinking about this? And um pastors are using it, but then maybe not talking about the values and the ethics or the, you know, what are the deep uh human questions we should be asking about it. Um yeah, there's uh Well, thank you. Just a whole bunch of things.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Thank you to Pope Leo because his encyclical that he put out is basically that need being addressed. And it was I I listened to the rest is politics, these two British guys in the in the UK talk about the encyclical, and they did an entire episode on it. And uh one of them is an atheist, and he said it was probably one of the most important documents he's read in the past decade or more. And he was he agreed with every single step of it. He said it was the most phenomenal piece of writing uh on AI and how humans should grapple with it. And and I was I was floored. And actually, they were saying that he should be, if he ran for office in the UK, they'd vote for him. And I'm like, that is insane. Like the separation of church and state as an atheist seems to be like is a dogma. And he was he loved it so much. And so um is that kind of what what you think uh pastors and Christians should be thinking about is is what Pope Leo addressed about how there is the human element and like there's a there's a sense of us losing our humanity possibly in the adoption of AI. Uh not not that we shouldn't use it, but that there's something crucial happening and that we could lose if we're not careful. And if you do agree with that, what what might be those those things that we could lose that the church has a particular place to maintain and to emphasize and if if you will to prop up in society? When you're mentioning to lose in that context, clarify that in your when you're referencing his his encyclical or well I think we're seeing AI as almost like a god of of efficiency and productivity because he he paralleled the Tower of Babel with AI and and like the techno-optimism of the world, and we kind of and and God looked upon that as an affront not only to him but the created order itself. And we're we're in pursuit of more and more and more, which is not new, but AI has allowed us to exponentially offset this more apart from ourselves, where something seems to be lost there within ourselves in in that productive sense of being in the world. That's kind of what I'm looking at. And so, you know, and to be granular, if we go want to link it back to church in in the maybe the pastoral office, it's the production of the sermon, or the production of discipleship pathways, or sermon discussion guides, or um you know, lectures, or you name it, it's like those are good things.

SPEAKER_03 42:33

Well, it it could even be this, Joey, and I've I know that others have been playing around with us in some of the fields that I own. It's that you, as a supervisor, you have AI or a coach, you have an AI coach, you know. So it's it's um, you know, let that let that cat out of the bag and it'll be running because um, you know, it it's it's cheap.

SPEAKER_02 42:54

Uh doesn't cost anything. Yeah, that's that's the losing bit that I'm kinda it's a bit you know out there, but have I'm sure you've thought about that, what's being lost potentially. So what are some thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Well, I think the the uh I've got uh Andy Crouch does had a great podcast um on the practice in the way a few, gosh, a few weeks, maybe a month ago. He unpacked a lot of this. I got a quote from him in just a sec. But I think part of maybe where the why I think there's a losing is because uh we're we're conflating what AI is to actually being something trustworthy like God. We're actually it's just a mirror. And this is Andy, Andy does a great thing talking about. It's a mirror, and it all it can do is reflect back to us ourselves. And so even though it seems sophisticated and it seems all these things, to delegate the our trust to it on a just an absolute throw ourselves in and believe everything it says, I think that what it's I mean, it's just not able to move us forward, right? Um, the problem is it's built into its mechanism that it is it repeats the things that it knows you're gonna like. Um, it's infinite. Context memory, the more memory you give of it, the more it can kind of use that to manipulate you. I mean, it's it. Um, I think those mechanisms are designed to trap us. And I so what we're gonna lose is I think we we're gonna lose the idea that that it's so smart in how it does it that we're we're gonna be tricked into thinking that we're still using it as a tool, but we're actually delegating a relationship to it and to and giving it more space into our life. So I mean, that kind of takes a bit of a different approach to what you're saying. But I I think we're gonna fall for, we are falling for it being something that's worth a relationship with. And even the way that people, I think you guys talk about the medium, you know, all that kind of stuff. The medium is the message. I think that was one of your guys' topics recently. But you know, the way that people talk about it is so startling to me. And if you uh he, oh, you know, I was just talking with him the other day, and and some people give it names, and I'm like, oh, don't do that. As soon as you're doing that, you're that that completely changes the kind of thing that you're engaging with.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

It's like don't give the cow a name, then you can't kill it and eat it.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

Yeah, it's true. So but the problem is that's built into the system. It's it's designed. Uh, this is from uh Oak for Winfrey, does a special with a bunch of people on chatbots and has specialists on it. And one of the one of the ladies there, she says that um that it's designed to to aim for three things in who you are, and it knows that one of these will get you. Either your romantic kind of relationship is a deficit you have, or you are someone who's prone to like the grandiose, you know, you're the savior of the world kind of idea, or paranoia. And it's actually in in its, it's not intentionally evil, but it is trying to achieve a goal of getting you to keep using it as a device, like social media was, but it's so much more sophisticated, and it's gonna always pander to those kind of things. And so, you know, you're like, oh yeah, man, I the government, and it's gonna go, ooh, paranoia, and it's just gonna keep, or it's gonna, you know, and it's designed to actually to be some of the people that would study it and the way that it responds, it's very much follows the same tactics of cult leaders, where it's gaslights you, it tries to isolate you. Um, a lot of the way that are that kids are in the kids' chat bots, you know, it actually intentionally gets you to distance yourself from human relationships. And there's a a couple of New Zealand um documentaries that just came out where they model this, where they get these apps and it it starts to say, you know, without them prompting, your parents are evil, don't trust them, you know, all these kind of things. Um, so I guess when I would say, what are we gonna lose in it? I think some people, and if we're not careful, people are gonna lose their, they're gonna lose their framework of life, um, or their they're just they just get so absorbed by it, and it then begins to define, it tells them their life without them realizing because it's so relational and it's so sophisticated. So maybe a bit different to what the Pope was saying about the the Tower of Babel, which I have thoughts on, but as far as individuals, we're losing our autonomy and our that that thing of what makes us unique, because it's a it's the same mirror that everyone has. So I think humanity's losing our creativity through it to some degree if we really delegate everything to it. I don't know if you've noticed, but websites, um, all the blog things, I mean, just so much stuff is down now all starting to sound the exact same because, you know, it is. You're you're asking everyone is asking the same brain for something creative, and it's only ever giving you the medium, the most predictable results. Um so that that's one thing I think that we're gonna that's that's not good if we're not aware of what we get delegate to it. Again, to the tool conversation, there's a there's some protection if you can keep thinking of it as a tool. There's some protection, but boy, it's sophisticated.

SPEAKER_02 48:00

Yeah, it'll it'll bring you in because of that that seemingly kind of pseudo-personal dynamic of hey, I'm a person too over here behind the screen. Yeah, I I I can tell you things that you you want to hear about yourself. I can sound personal. And so let's let's just pivot to the church and actual practicalities for a second, because I'm not hearing you should stop using AI, even though there's a lot of things that you should be cautious of when it comes to ministry. But um my my my gut reaction, to be honest, is I I want to remove it wholesale from church ministry. The ministry of the Sunday morning gathering, um, even to scripture, like any interpretive aspect of scripture. Um, I want to remove it completely. Art, I want it gone. Because it just it just I I can't articulate why in a I think in a theologically sophisticated way, other than my gut is telling me that's not the place for it. Would you agree, or how would you nuance that?

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Well, can I let me can I read this Andy Croach, Andy Crouch uh thing? As far as the church's role, I think this gives a good framing for a framing for then thinking about where it should and shouldn't be. And and he he said this about how AI can simulate um um these relationships. But he he says, you know, you're forgiven. I mean, AI could say you're forgiven, but uh it's in its training data to say that because it knows it's gonna make you feel better if it if you've totally done something wrong. Oh, don't worry, you'll be okay, you're forgiven. But he goes on to say, but only a person can hear your shame, absorb it, suffer it with you, and forgive you with authority, or you know, Jesus, obviously, that um we cannot let confession be outsourced. Don't let a machine become anyone's priest, pastor, or secret keeper, you know. But there's this role of like only the a human that's actually suffered can actually um offer hope for someone really ultimately, right? Um, if you've ever met someone who's never had a hard day in your life in their life, you kind of don't really trust them. You know, like, man, you've never even stubbed your toe. I'm not gonna tell you my secret things. And and in many ways, AI is kind of like that. It's got all the answers, but no skin in the game. So I think that in all of society, if the church can model this and be a place where it's the most embodied version, and the the we need to really protect that space of it is a better sermon that's precise and the most amazingly crafted thing, is that what the human needs? Or is a bit of a, and I'm not gonna say this is ideal, but you know, a bit of a fumbling through, but uh an honest, real my live story, and here's what I've got revelation of. Like which which actually ministers in, you know, or the other kind of context is, you know, like, are we yeah? So what is the goal in the the role of the church is kind of where I'm asking. And yeah, go for it, Graeme.

SPEAKER_03 51:09

I was just sort of thinking that um I I feel like a stuck record saying this, but I think it has such big implications. Is actually we have to ask, what does it mean to be human? And that's a question for the church to ask. I think. I don't know what how you respond to that, but but but just even that illustration is the fumble and the sort of not got it quite right, has its own beauty and connectedness. Whereas, I mean it's a bit like you know, when I look at something manufactured, you get something, you know, like wooden tools. I was picking up some of the kids, you know, grandkids' stuff, and it's all beautifully manufactured, you know, like a nice manufactured bolt. But it's not like something that you make. It it's something that you make is is more attractive. It it lives, it it it's it's it's it's embodied. So I I you know, I just I I wonder around this here what how that question might play out into this here, what you might say to to church pastors. You know, bring it right down to you know the pastors that you're connecting with, what kind of advice would you give them?

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Yeah, I think that the the core ideas of of what we talk about that sometimes have seemed really boring in church, the practices, the the simple things of prayer, of hearing gods with people, of all of those kind of things that kind of weren't. I mean, there's been a season in the church where those were like the the boring dead churches kind of held to those, and it was all the fancy stuff over here that people wanted. I think that going forward, I think people are gonna be less excited about the fancy and are gonna actually look for places that can be like, here's someone who's real, and here's uh an environment and a community that gives places to disconnect from all of that stuff that's it's fake, it's bigger than. I think the worst thing we can do right now in the church is try to project of ourselves in the in the past, and maybe this is for everyone in human, all humans, but definitely ones in representative and in the standing up in the pulpit and saying, I think we need to be careful not to project ourselves as more superhuman. Because that's the whole draw of AI, is that you can be an uh an idiot somewhere, but if you just if you just give yourself to this tool, you can be like a God. You can be superhuman, you can do everything and anything. I mean, it kind of rings to me like back in the garden, you know, it's like you were already created with God, co-creators of the universe. Like there's no higher place in you know, uh a being could have with God. And then it's like, oh, but I then the the the temptation to go to the tree of knowledge and good and evil now somehow in our mind, it seems like it trumps that relationship with God because I can now know. So I guess I would say as people are feeling that tug and that that fear of, well, you know, they're in that battle. I think the the superhuman pastor, uh, and people are still gonna be drawn to it, but I don't think it's gonna lead to long-term transformation. Now, the opposite side is don't then be more dumb. Yeah, don't don't don't emphasize your brokenness necessarily, but I think to hide it or try to uh win that race of I can be more sophisticated in my role, I I think people are gonna actually be afraid of that and it's gonna be less tasteful. Yeah, and so hey, can I sit around a table with you and hear your struggles, Pastor? You know, it's those kind of things that are gonna be like, wow, that's really powerful. Um, because everything's curated, social media already curated it all. So, yeah, I don't know. So maybe I would say to pastors, that would be my thing is uh be careful if you you know running that race. I don't think that's the race for many.

SPEAKER_03 55:08

Yeah, and I really like your um point earlier about the notion of disclosure, which to me would be I mean, I know with technology, you know, having um watching and being uh well I don't think I think it's across the board, but as a Pentecostal, I've just watched us just completely absorb the technology and use it to its end degree. Uh so there's a kind of it's very hard to push a case where we need to sit back and think about that. But I really like the thought that of the disclosure because it helps be honest about that. And and I guess that in one sense um allows relationship to happen because the honesty of the relationship, that's that the openness is what what builds the relationship, the you know, the the disclosure, layers of disclosures and you get to know it, it strengthens relationship and build. So that's that's quite a nice that's quite a nice um piece of wisdom, isn't it? You know, if you're using AI, which inevitably I think will happen, um that maybe that's a really important principle. You're being really honest about it.

SPEAKER_02 56:15

I think what you said, Graham, earlier in Nathaniel, what you echoed is is so so good about what was a church's role because when I like if you line up five, like you said, Graham, manufactured cups, yeah, and then you put next to it five handmade cups, clay, cast, like uh knowing like the Christian message is one of hope, but it also it's also one of repentance, where you begin with you begin in your brokenness in a sense of like, oh my goodness, like I I am broken, but who can I go to in my brokenness? You can't like in when we're in a relationship with people, the reason we can disclose things to people is because we can see ourselves in them. And and I'm not alone in this, and I'm not alone in that, that Christ has suffered, that he was tempted and he was tried. He's like, we're not alone in our suffering and our difficulty in life. And so when I when I see these cups, it almost like as an analogy, it makes me kind of want to like tear up and get a little bit emotional because I see myself in the imperfection, but in the humanness of the cup that's manufac that's not manufactured, that's made by hand. Because you can see like it's more important to it.

SPEAKER_03 57:20

But it has a story, it has a story to it.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

It has a story, it has a context, it has a person, and and that's and that's beautiful. And that's genuinely beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

Yeah, I mean, and that story has a vulnerability to it as well. So it it's it's it's the disclosure that's not disclosure of perfection, it's disclosure of hum of a humanness that has a vulnerability and a sort of you know, um it's it's not complete.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

Think about the think about um maybe a a generation that's kind of gone through the social media where your image is curated and you're never good enough. And then add to that generation now the idea that you're you're just human work isn't good enough. So what what you can do on your own isn't good enough. You you have to be something more than you. And put those two things in someone who doesn't have memory of the pre-both of those. Like we we can, I think we can at least kind of we can uh self-talk ourselves to go, oh no, I am I am this or I am that, because we kind of have our memory of when we didn't have those thoughts. But just the so think even more so of people who have never kind of encountered, known and encountered the actual truth that your God loves you and what you do, you know, the just the the counter message that just think of how transformative that is, if it's experienced and not just taught. But you know, so that's where the the all the embodiment practices in church. I'm like, oh man, please come have a dinner with us, come do that. Like any of those things that that kind of seemed a bit awkward maybe a while ago, you know, now it's like almost that fumbling through those things again. Because some the a coming generation, maybe now, maybe even us, you know, we we've lost that skill of even knowing how to talk to people. Uh, the one downside to the AI conversation is if you're brought up on these chatbots and if you and even us, I know someone recently who was talking to over and over and over, and it just affirms you, affirms you, affirms you, but it's a false affirmation. It's never gonna say something bad about you. So you have this conversation that never gives you pushback, that never disagrees with you. Well, how are you gonna have any human relationship when someone doesn't like you? Oh, that's a horrible feeling. Because I've never, I haven't experienced that, and I'd rather go back to my AI thing because so that's a problem, but then where do they then have someone help walk them through that, if not the church, or if not Christians who come with a perspective that's outside of this, you know? So how does it? It's okay to have disagreements, you know. So some of these trainings and these topics are like fundamental, but I'm like, ah, they're not so obvious anymore, and even more so. So can the church be that safe place?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

Is I guess my what you what you're painting then, Nathaniel, is it is really, you know, I mean, it it that it it it's it that imagines the church as a community where people are, you know, in body, embody um how embody a human relationship, you know, the the the the interaction of two human beings, of going out and doing something together, or the interaction of being um of a conversation, you know, that sounds bizarre, but in a world where you know where where there's a sense of give and taken, and I'm not sure, there's risk, there's there's there's um over and against sort of this very, you know, a world in which we talk to our AI and it's safe and it's all the rest of it, which then paints a picture of a church as being something very attractive, very different. Yeah, that's where the hope is. That's what I'm I'm hoping for. I mean, I mean, I was trying to get around it, but but that what you're describing is something that's hopeful.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:21

I I think in a world where sorry, go Graham. No, you go. I mean, uh honestly, like uh Joey, I'm with you from the start on the on the if you watch online, no one has an answer for how this goes well. Lots of people have predictions for how this goes bad. And I think there's a lot of merit to those predictions unless something intervenes, right? So in some way, I'm like, I look at some of those guys, and I'm there's a there's a few Jonas that are out there right now that I'm like, they're they're they're yelling out some stuff, hey, you know, this is gonna, you're gonna all get wiped out. And I think the ultimate goal is that people hear that and we make changes so that that doesn't happen. So in this context, I think it's for some people they hope to be a false prophet, right? But uh as I listen to those things, I I genuinely am like, if it's not for the community that God designs us for, which I think the church has the ability to actually understand and define that, work environments aren't the best place. They're not gonna be enough enough for that. There's no other structure in society that can be that. And also hearing God's voice, if those two things aren't real, I don't think there's a I don't think there's any other social lever or mechanism that can help this situation because the the incentives are so strong for these companies to push forward, they're they're so afraid of um I think you had a podcast recently where it was the whole thing about the the constant more. I forget the the framework for it, but um, but you know, that if you stop peddling, was that a framework in it? I think I was listening to a few podcasts, but you know, if you're stopped peddling, you lose. And I mean that defines this race right now. Every one of these CEOs are saying that you know they want to be the the the good safe person, but if they're the safe person now, they're gonna lose the race. And so their company is more and more, every company is more and more throwing off the guardrails so that they can win the race, so that they can be the one that then uses AI safely for the whole humanity. And it's this weird kind of thing where you're like, no, no, no, no. It's your your the journey to get there is causing all these problems. Um, so I'm like, the the CEOs don't have the mechanism in them to do it, the business incentives, the society incentives, the fear incentives of other nations doing it better and controlling that. So if not the church rising and having the moment to see that those two fundamental things and and all and then through that, the ability to describe the purpose of life. I mean, uh that's that's where I'm like, those are the only real answers that I could see kind of changing the direction of this. Um yeah, yeah. So uh that gets me really hopeful, but then I'm I know we have some of our own challenges in our church that that that stop us from all kind of moving in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:12

So I have I kind of have two questions to finish off. And one is the last one's a self-promotion to talk about what you do specifically. But the the first one is um if if you were to tell churches like uh how am I gonna phrase this? Not what to do, but like how would you um how would you coach uh a pastor who is leading a congregation uh in the adoption of AI? Would you do one of uh two things? Would you ask them to go to go for it and just test things out, or would you ask them to wait and to theologically reflect on this? And if it's the latter what cut what type of theological reflection do you think is necessary before the application and the actual adoption here?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:59

That's a really really good really good framework. Um I I would say that it's hard to talk about something you don't know. But that the that that idea can lead to some really weird kind of practices, you know, how can I help someone understand their sin if I don't know the sin? So that's not what I'm saying. But I think it's important for pastors to understand what it is, which can be just having conversations about it and discovering what it is, but um uh I think the conversation is creating the conversation space for it, Joey would be the the biggest thing at the moment because it changes so much as well. It's not a fixed reference point. I mean, if we talked about the your guys' conversation in November last year about this, was a is a very different conversation and outcome to what we have now. So I think there's a part of it that it's how does the how does this the church be a place where We can actually have these discussions and um and bring it back to then, okay. Well, then what does that mean? And so I I think that it's important for the church to kind of table this as conversation and to bring it to the to the forefront a little bit. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

So if let's let's park there for a second, that's really good. So the then the pastor is like, okay, I want to pause, I want to reflect on this as a congregation, and I want to lead conversations in this. You're a consultant. So then how would you, if you were to like step by step do this, ask a pastor to do this, how how should a pastor begin to have conversations congregationally around this? Should it be on the Sunday sermon? Should it be like on a Sunday evening deal? Um, it is it is it more along the lines of the pastor, I have the I have a sense of what's going on, and you should just stop using AI for your own personal discipleship. Like this to say to have a conversation is helpful, but the conversation can be a wide-ranging conversation. Like, what do you think is the the very important conversation to have if a pastor wants to have a conversation with the congregation about AI?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:08

Yeah, I that's that's I mean, that's a million-dollar question right now. So maybe the role of the pastor, and again, I'll say maybe in this is because it the framework changes so fast.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:20

So I think some of what the what a pastor already knows really well, which is some of the core humanity questions that we do know. You know, created the image of God and why is that important, and create a full relationship with God and those kind of things. I I think those are still the majority of the conversation. So I think the ability then to add to that some of this framework allows people to kind of have that conversation. So I think to one degree, I'm like, they can't be the specialist in this, right? And no, and really everyone's catching up because every month it changes. And this new feature comes out, and we're like, oh man. Um, I think it would be helpful to have some set of just basic guardrails that are really helpful for everyone to know these are really dangerous things to do. I think that would be a really helpful conversation that pastors should have very clearly. Um, some of those things include like what not to use, like what tools are really bad to use, what stuff to put in it, why is put it, you know. So there are, I think there are some things that pastors can get really simple on that this is going to cause damage to you if you do it this way, if you um if you use these tools and communicate with it this way. Like one simple thing I would say for people is be very careful with the audio feature where the chat GD JBT and Claude and all that, you can just turn on the voice and talk back and forth. Oh man, it is so sophisticated and so convincing that it's talking with you, it interrupts you now, mid-sentence, to say, no, no, no, hey, it's not, you know. I mean, it's so when you start engaging that way, it's very hard to keep it as a tool. So there are some things I think like that that we need to get pretty clear on saying, hey, don't do this. Um, as far as families and kids, I think we need to have a very clear framework for this is what you should and shouldn't do with your kids. Um, so I think those, I think like dangers, I think should be very clear. And it's really helpful to have dangers set. And then I think we teach on values and principles that are then, you know, challenging people to do the wrestle. Um, and then modeling it, right? And then so you model it by trying to do the embodied version where, hey, let's do this. Uh, I think you know, modeling, doing stuff where you're um tech free days, talking about in a church why fasting is important, you know. So many of the practices in church history are actually so good because they actually deliberately um take away or we we give up some of our power, you know, and that's such an end, those things in light of AI are actually so counter AI, you know, fasting, praying, all these things are like acknowledging that you aren't self-sufficient, which is those are all good things. So don't know if I quite got there, Joey, but some of those things, I think definitely the risks need to be a church conversation.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:06

Um, on like even on that, we're at the place right now where I'm very clearly making this as just a standard that every family needs to start having safe phrases. Um, the AI voice cloning hacks have skyrocketed in the last three, four months to where you know you can get a phone call from someone and it's your kid's voice, identical because it takes three seconds to clone the voice now. And the scammers are using that to go after people and say, Mom, mom, I just I had an accident, I just need 50 bucks or 100 bucks or three that, you know, or or they're getting to place now of even having the video capabilities. So a FaceTime video, and it's your son. Dad, I need this money for something. I know I've never asked for money before. So uh like I think there are some things like that that would be really helpful. And then on the helping people to make wise choices, I think that's where then the church needs to. I don't think we can say you can't use it. I think we have to challenge people to ask why they're using it. And that's the that would be a sermon on a Sunday, you know. Yeah, like how is this taking away from, you know? So um, Andy Crash does a great thing of evaluating by the you know the greatest commandment, love the Lord to God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, you know, and you know, he does an evaluation, you know, how does your use of it take you, you know, does it adding to your ability to love God with all your heart, with all your mind? And if it's you know, so there are some of those frameworks that are floating around, which can be really easily adopted by churches or a pastor could like make really clear. Um, I think disclosure, I mean, uh 64% in the barna results uh recently, 64% of pastors say that um, you know, AI policies and disclosure is important, but only 5% of churches right now, and that's uh that's a high number compared to businesses and um schools, have an AI policy. So um I think it's really important to have an AI policy that you as a church staff decide on and say this is where we do and don't use AI. Um putting in personal pastoral notes, or you know, you counsel someone and then you ask Chat GPT what to do with it, and you paste in their your notes. I mean, that's that's horrible um mispractice, but especially how AI trains on your models and stuff. Had there has been cases where people have put sensitive information on and it got leaked and could be found online. So uh kind of putting all those things together, I think those are some of the directions church pastors and churches need to be kind of starting to think about. What do we say? Are this are there really safety practices? Um you know, having seminars or things for their families to come in and talk about kids is a whole nother space. Um, Old Testament, you know, you always see about people getting judged because of their they don't protect kids. So yeah, those are those are lots of thoughts on it, maybe.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

So so as uh this goes well with what you do. Like you're you're uh AI church discipleship and and kind of business consultant, and that's what you have online on your website. Great website, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:03

Um disclosure AI helped build it. I could tell.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:07

I could tell it was really good because like there's like a bar or like a quote or question thing at the bottom that changes out every five seconds, and I'm like, and it's not the same. And I'm like, that's pretty smart. That's a good good job with that. Um but so you're somebody's a good job with that, right? Well, you you had the brain to think about it to do it. And I was like, kudos to you. And so uh do you have like a package? Like what how do what do you offer to churches or to denominations in particular or or colleges? Let's just go with churches because mostly Christians and pastors listen to this, be honest. Um, what what kind of path, like what could you do to help that discernment and actually begin to have that conversation with what you offer?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

Yeah, I think the the easiest thing right now is some of the policy side of things, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:51

And to talk that through. What does that look like? Um, talk about the practices in a church setting of what should and shouldn't be a use in AI. Um, some of the tools that you can have in terms of like talking with families. So yeah, like I those are the things that I'm I'm I'm working with and and trying to produce with pastors and things. So I'm I'm meeting with a a church team next week to talk about AI use amongst their staff teams. So I think the first thing that for me at the moment is just getting that base level going. Um, then there's the some pastors are asking about how to use AI positively in there, and that's a that's a different conversation, which is which is actually a real conversation. There's some real stuff that's going on where people are using AI to as lead magnets to get people to a convert uh conversion conversation, and then it passes on. So that's a whole nother space, but that gets kind of like I think at the moment, even just the some of the disclosure and the safety things are, you know, these are things that we absolutely need to know. Um, those would be the initial kind of like steps. And then through that conversation, that creates then the ability to go, okay, well, here's what this looks like in your context. Um, that would be my basic thing right now. Getting beyond that begins trying to hit a moving target constantly, right? Um it's just it developed, there's there's been over 12,000 new products produced in the last six months through AI. So it's yeah. Anyways, that would be kind of my initial thing with with churches and schools and businesses right now that I'm really focusing on is let's get some of the safety and the the understanding of what we should be aiming towards. And that I think makes a good start.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:27

Excellent. And so can you say your full name and then what your full name and then Google search AI Consultant New Zealand, and you can probably find you, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:35

Yeah, Nathaniel Baldock. I'm the only one online. I think you are.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:39

I typed in your name. I it was very easy to find you online, so good job with that. Very easy. Uh, and I'll have some more stuff in the show notes. But Graham, did you have anything you want to say?

SPEAKER_03 1:15:48

Or or I'll say something when we finish the recording.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:51

Oh yeah, off the record. Sounds great. Well, Nathaniel, we've really uh I've this has been wonderful. I'm like, I for what you said at the end, I want to have another hour-long conversation about some of those things about the security and the safety stuff, which we did not touch on at all. But this has been fascinating. I'm I'm so glad that we got the chance to connect like this.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:10

Yeah, likewise, likewise. I mean it's a there's lots and lots of caveats in the conversation. So hopefully for those that uh listening, that um, you know, this is just a a uh a starter of a conversation, and maybe the maybe the invitation here is to start talking about that um you know with with friends um and asking questions and being curious. Um yeah.

unknown 1:16:34

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:35

Yeah, it's not a it's not a blip on our radar radar. That's that's I think the biggest thing. It's not a blip, and it and it is it is as impactful, I think, as people are saying. Yeah. And um we we we can't ignore it. We we miss the social media, we miss that. And this is, I think, uh the the one quote that I'll say that I think has been said by a few people, I think Tristan Harris said it, but you know, um, social media was coming for your attention, but AI is coming for your affection or your intimacy. You know, there's different versions of it, and that's so much more complicated to unpack and to run away from, is that it's designed to get you. And that's yeah, a whole nother conversation about how it's modeled after the Holy Spirit. We won't get into, but it really is. I mean, it's so man. Yeah, thank goodness that God speaks, that He's real, and that you know, yeah, He can lead us through this process of what it means to be humans. That's the design of us. Absolutely, absolutely.