Why Scholars Avoid The Passion Bible Translation & You Should Too

In this episode, Graeme and Joey sit down with Dr Clare Knowles to discuss the BEST and WORST Bible translations on the market.

Dr Clare Knowles is a translator for Bible Society New Zealand as a primary translator and teaches biblical hebrew at the University of Otago. She completed her PhD thesis, “Interpreting Isaiah from Isaiah: Intratextual Translation in Old Greek Isaiah”, at Otago in 2022.

Lunch on The Way is a podcast that deeply discusses Christianity, Church, Culture, and Jesus.
Available on ALL podcast platforms https://lunchontheway.buzzsprout.com/share

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

The passion translation is loved by certain sections of the case.

SPEAKER_00 0:04

The passion translation? Yes. What's that? You know, as you can guess from the name, it's all about emotion. And my main quibble with it would be that I don't think it should call itself a translation. He also claims prophetic revelation.

SPEAKER_02 0:17

Sounds like Joseph Smith or It does, right?

SPEAKER_00 0:20

He believes in this theory that the original autographs of the New Testament were mostly Aramaic.

SPEAKER_03 0:26

This is my theory as to why this is such a prominent translation. So, Claire, if I were to ask you for a top five Bible translations, should I say five or three?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Oh well, clear. It's good to see you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:44

It's a while since we've done one of these. Yeah, I know. You know? I think it's been two years.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

It's been about two years, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:49

One thing I realized in in the two years since is that the topic of Bible translation has become a lot more important. I think it's been really important with Gen Z in particular. If you go on Instagram or TikTok, which I'm on, neither. But occasional confession. Yes. I I have accounts, but I they're not on my phone. And virtue signaling moment there. And um and sorry, I already digressed. Um but it's everywhere. Like the stuff that gets the most likes, the most views is what Bible translation do you use? This is the one I use. How do you take notes when you're reading the Bible? How do you devotionally read it? All that kind of stuff is just sitting there. And people in their like late teens and early twenties are just eating it up. And so I I didn't know that. And then when we had our conversation two years ago, just broadly around actually some of the technical aspects of Bible translation, which to be honest, most people don't really they don't think about, they probably don't care about. It was actually when we talked about the translation stuff and specifically around the passion translation that I saw on like the retention graph, a spike.

SPEAKER_04 1:54

Oh really?

SPEAKER_03 1:54

And then and then I I clipped it out and it went farther than I expected it to. Because we have such a low quality production. It's not necessarily we don't have any bells and whistles here, mostly it's just talking. And so people are into it. And then when I was teaching a block course um in the Christ in the Christchurch area, and it was all early 20-year-olds, that was one of their biggest questions. Like, what bubble translation do you use? And then I was like, actually, we interviewed somebody. Let me just pull up that clip really quick and see what she has to say. And that somebody was you. So I feel like this is kind of a a round two version two for our younger audiences a little bit. Yeah. Which I don't know if we have that many young people, but we'll see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Just to get context into landage, we did this two years ago with you. What's happened in your life since?

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Well, um, after that time, I had another child and took some took some time away from work. Fair enough. Yeah. So I think I was out of work for about ten months or so. Um but I've been back in for a few months now. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:55

And what project you were working on? Was it the Maori translation?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

We're yeah, we've got a few different projects. So um Maori translation, we're trying to get a new one off the ground. And it's still a watch this space kind of situation. Um but we hope that yeah, it's going to start moving soon. Um same with New Zealand Sign Language. That's another one that we're working on.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

How do you do a sign language Bible?

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Videos.

SPEAKER_01 3:21

Oh it's all video. Yeah, because that's right, you were learning sign language. I remember I remember walking into you know into other place where we all work. And Claire's got this thing in her head going like this. I'm thinking, gosh, you know, new Claire.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

So it's challenging. Like, you know, I've learned quite a number of languages. Um sign language is so, so different. And I think for someone like me, it's more challenging to um but it's so expressive. Like I'm such an introvert. Um I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

If you do any if there's any, you know, like political broadcast, they do those sort of things. Yeah. Yeah. And you see them come. And they're just all there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

I feel like someone who's extroverted um or just generally more expressive with their face and their hands and so on, they'll probably ease into it more naturally. Yeah. Theatrical.

unknown 4:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Yeah, because um, I mean, the grammar and everything, it's encoded in the face as well as the hands and um and the direction you're facing and all that. Yeah, so it's it's just totally new to me. And anyway, I've had some time out from that with a a small child and so on, but I'm trying to get back into it now. Um and it's been fun revising it. And yeah, I need to sign up for some course. But yeah, so so NZL, that's one thing that we're trying to also get off the ground. We don't know what it will look like. Um, you know, are we gonna do a small selection of passages or uh yeah, we're finding our way and we're working with this very small group of deaf Christians um who came to us and to Wycliffe um saying, you know, we don't have any scripture and we want some. So we're working with them to find out what are the needs, what are people actually gonna use, and how do we do it? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:04

Because I know there's a large church in Atlanta, Canada, I forget what they're called now. They used to be called Moncton Wesleyan Church, and they would always have they would have um a bilingual announcement time for French and English, because it was an English French community. And they would have somebody uh doing sign language on the side. Uh with a spotlight on them on the side of the stage at all times. It's so cool. Yeah, but it was a church of like a couple thousand people.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

By Pastor and Christchurch, there was a group of them that did sign language. They do they do it to the so they they used to meet as a small group and then try and get the worship songs and sign language of the worship songs.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Oh, that's cool. Yeah, that's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 5:39

So they do this on a Sunday morning. So it wasn't something we'd organise, it was something they wanted to do.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

So yeah, no, it's like our local Baptist church used to have apparently about ten percent of the congregation was deaf. Um and so they they had a pastor who he he was a Brit um and he grew up or he learned BSL, British Sign Language, at a young age because he thought there was a potential for him going deaf. Um and so he learnt BSL and came to New Zealand and learned NZSL. They're closely related. Um and so I guess that congregation kind of attached to him. Um he's since moved on, and I think with COVID, a lot of the people have moved elsewhere as well, which is a shame because it's literally 10 minutes walk from home. Um and it would have been awesome if I could have connected in with that.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Yeah, I mean it's quite something, isn't it? It's quite something for that to see that. It actually is yes, I I'm gonna say entertaining is probably the wrong word, but it is it's striking to watch.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Well it's it's so interesting to us because it's just a completely different way of communicating and and being in the world. Um yeah, deaf people don't see themselves as as having a disability like we tend to to think, perhaps. Um but uh yeah, that for them deafness is their culture um and sign language is their language. Yeah. So yeah. So so that's something that we're um hoping to really get off the ground in the next few years. Um so probably the next year or so we'll be kind of exploring, maybe doing some sample translation and engaging a bit more with the community. Um yeah, so those are those two ones. The Tokelauan that we talked about last time that has been launched. And so three of my colleagues got to actually travel to Tokelau um October or something last year.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

Um which is a bit of a journey, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 7:25

A huge journey. So yeah, yeah, you fly into Samoa and then you have to take a boat, and then you the normal boat was out of um out of action at that time, so they had to um charter a different kind of boat, and it took something like 30 hours to travel, and they had these tiny little windows at the top, and everyone was violently ill. I was like, I'm not sure I could have coped with that. But they had an awesome time once they got there.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you're you're a long way from here. Thirty hours. I mean that's that's a a good day's trip by boat.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

So it must be yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

It really tough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:03

Were you going on was it a holiday or was it work trip that you were going on when I ran into you at the airport when I was with my family? You remember that? When was that? That was uh 2024 in August.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

Oh, okay, yeah. That that I did two short trips to Fiji. Yeah. That that was for work that yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So one was to meet with um Bible society colleagues from the Asia-Pacific region. Um and then the other one was to meet with um Bible translation colleagues more broadly, so other organizations um who are working in the Pacific.

unknown 8:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:37

So there's a lot that goes into creating a brand new translation. Like you're just the collegiality that you're just whipping off is just massive.

SPEAKER_01 8:46

The expense of this is enormous.

SPEAKER_03 8:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:48

Yeah, it is. Who pays for it? Well, it's it's um Christians who are passionate about getting the Bible out to um yeah, to people who don't have it. So uh in other uh I guess you most other organizations like Wycliffe and Pioneer Pioneer Bible Translation Translators and so on, the the members, the missionaries would raise support um from you know their home churches and so on to help them live life but serve in the way that they're serving. Um and with Bible society it's a bit different where we have donors um who contribute to Bible society to keep it going, and I'm paid a salary from that. So I see. Yeah, it's essentially it's the same thing though, isn't it? It's it's Christians who believe in the cause who want to get the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

It's a very old one of the early societies, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:42

Um later this year, it's 180 years that New Zealand Bible Society has been operating. Yeah, it's one of our earliest organizations.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

And then you go to the British Bible Society, which is probably your original one, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yes. Yep. The British and Foreign Bible Societies uh Bible Society, that's BFBS, they are the original. Um United Bible Societies, which is I guess like the umbrella organization, as a fellowship that um that we all join up to. Um that is now reaching 80 years, I think.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

Oh, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

This year. Yeah, we've just passed 80 years. So New Zealand Bible Society was a hundred years before that.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

Um It's amazing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 10:24

Yeah, it is one of our earliest organizations. I think maybe the police is the first, and then we're like just after that or something.

SPEAKER_03 10:31

It's like we had we had the police, we had farming, then we had the police, you know, and then we had Bible translation.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

You're like, And it did start out as um underneath the the Australian or was it what was it called? Based in Sydney, I think, New South Wales.

SPEAKER_03 10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

And we had like the Auckland auxiliary and so on. But yeah, effectively.

SPEAKER_03 10:50

You may have predated the banks in New Zealand.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Maybe.

SPEAKER_03 10:52

That'd be crazy.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

I don't know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:54

Yeah, money sounds like it's really important to people, but also is the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

So what's your role specifically? Because you you aren't doing the hands-on translating work, yeah. But you're almost like the final step of almost like quality assurance kind of thing. It is kind of like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

So I'm my title is translation coordinator. Um and within that, I suppose I do a bunch of different things. The main thing would be translation consulting, that's that's what we call it. Okay. Um so I work with the translation teams who are ideally native speakers who are actually doing the translation work themselves. But I work with them with the material that they produce to check that it's accurate, um, to ask important questions about their culture and um point out things about the biblical text that they maybe don't know. Um so there's a lot of negotiating that goes on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Yeah. And so you've got a you've got an undergrad, a master's, a PhD, you have the whole thing to do this job.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Yes. Yeah.

unknown 11:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Yeah. To be the final, not the final necessarily, but be the last few steps to actually having a Bible printed for the first time possibly, or for the first time in 200 years, a revision has you know, of uh of the New Testaments.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

And there's like there's authorities above me, do you know what I mean? I'm not like the I'm not the final word, I'm not the person who makes the final decisions. I mean that isn't it. But it is a a big responsibility. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

I mean, this is the fascinating thing, isn't it? When you I mean when you look at it at a at a text, at an ancient text, you know, the scripture, I don't mean any particular one, but the Bible as such. It's so scrutinized. Yeah It's so gone over, isn't it? Yeah, above anything else.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

There's no other literary tenant that's it's so scrutinized, I mean and and lay it upon layout in terms of the scrutiny that's given in terms of translation. It's it's I mean, even in that is a sense of an apologetic as to the significance of scripture, really, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 12:57

But we're in an English this is an English speaking podcast though. Yeah. And so we're gonna focus on the English translations of the Bible. And there are Yeah, well that even that's I don't even know how many there are. Like we are we are in, you know, you know, for like most of human history the problem was getting enough food to eat, and then now we have the problem of eating too much food, and then there's a whole health thing related to that. I think we're in that point with English translations in the Bible, where we tried so hard through the Reformation of getting in English translation, yeah, getting those manuscripts translated, getting the most accurate manuscripts as far back as we can get, doing creating the whole discipline of textual criticism so we can compare documents and get to like within 99.999% accuracy of like the original autograph of the text in Greek and Hebrew. But now we have like hundreds of English translations. It's almost like podcasts. It's almost like there's some that are really great.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:55

And there's some that you really just shouldn't listen to.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

It's it's an embarrassment of riches. It is.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

When you consider that there's still a lot of is this a naming today, is it? A naming of what's not good and calling some translations.

SPEAKER_00 14:09

I think we will, yeah. But um, I mean, yeah, it's a good moment to pause and say, there's still heaps of languages that don't have the Bible. Um so I think I said on the last podcast maybe we should stop translating into English for a bit and focus on these other languages that don't have scripture.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

Aaron Ross Powell Because some of these some of these English translation committees are like hundreds of scholars. Do you have hundreds of scholars for other translations?

SPEAKER_00 14:34

No, no. And um sort of our succession planning for translation consultants, um, translators probably as well, is is quite tricky. Um we have you know, we've got a lot of more senior people who are coming up to retirement and not so many younger people coming through. So it's challenging. And already some of our translation consultants are consulting on so many projects.

SPEAKER_04 14:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

There was a wonderful man um in Fiji, it's actually someone, um, who passed away, I think, last year, may have been the year before now. Um, and he had been looking after something like 18 different projects, and you can just imagine how stretched he was. And so now those projects are sort of being shared out amongst me and some of my other colleagues. Um yeah, that's kind of the ra reality. I've got colleagues in India who have some, you know, like twenty or so projects that they're looking after. And yeah, very, very stretched. Oh man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually I learned recently Vanuatu has the most languages per population.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Oh, per capita?

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Yeah, I I would have thought it was a very important thing.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

So how do you do di differentiate between language and dialect of you know, like even English has its accents and I don't think there's like a I don't think there's an agreed upon definition.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Some people say that um the difference between a a language and a dialect is that the language has an army or something. Um so more more like a power thing than anything. But generally we would say like a language um uh is not mutually intelligible by another language. Um but dialects within one language, like they might sound quite different, they might have quite different vocab at times, but basically you can understand each other. But it's a little bit fluid.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

I think it's like I mean, and that would be not that I'm overly familiar with that, but so um where my forebears came from, they speak Doric. So Dorik Doric. So Doric is this is the east east coast of Scotland, and Doric, and I can't understand any of it. It's completely, you know, which is which there are some sounds that sound familiar, but it's another language. Yeah. So you could say that as another language.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:53

You'd be you'd be cut out if you couldn't.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

And there I mean it it it will vary depending on what languages you're talking about. Like if you were talking about Spanish and Portuguese or something, there'll be times where a Spanish speaker can understand bits and pieces that the Portuguese speaker is is saying. But yeah, they'll they'll get lost in the middle. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

You'll be happy to know, Graham, that uh yes, there is a Bible translation for the Doric language. Oh, is there? For the dialect of Scots spoken in North East Scotland.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

How old is it?

SPEAKER_03 17:25

Uh New Testament published in 2012.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Ah, there you go. Oh well.

SPEAKER_03 17:30

So it's recent.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

So someone it makes sense. There's some good universities in Scotland. Well, my father was, you know, born born here, but his parents spoke it, and so he could understand it. He'd come up with a few phrases, but he didn't he couldn't speak it, but he could understand it.

SPEAKER_04 17:44

Oh, that's cool, eh?

SPEAKER_03 17:45

Yeah. So, Claire, if I were to ask you for a top five Bible translation, should I say five or three? What would be more comfortable for you?

SPEAKER_00 17:52

Oh, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 17:54

You don't don't whip them off, yeah. We'll put me go one by one through them because you've done you said you've done some preparation into some of these. And then if you had a bottom three, would you have a bottom three?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

I definitely have a bottom two.

SPEAKER_03 18:06

That's all I that's great. Okay, I definitely have a bottom three. Oh, throw my hands together. And then do you have like a messy middle? Kind of like, eee, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Um I don't no, probably not. No, okay.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Well, how about we talk about the good ones first, mostly for retention's sake. And then we'll talk about the problem with the two at the bottom, all right? So if you had to do a top three, what would you say? Like one, two, three, let's start with three and go up. What would you say?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

The first thing that I would say in terms of top three is the the best Bible translation would be the one that you can understand and and enjoy reading, I suppose.

SPEAKER_04 18:42

Um, yeah, it is a bit.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

But um but if you're trying to force yourself to read something that is quite difficult for you to read, for example, like you're probably not a good idea.

SPEAKER_01 18:53

So there is a sense in which the reader has to understand.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so like you can get um you can get certain English translations that are designed for English speakers um for whom English is a second language or a foreign language, so they've you know simplified some of the vocabulary, they've shortened sentences, that kind of thing. So for someone who's not super confident with their English, that might be the best thing for them to go for. Um like there's the new international readers version. Um the good news was designed for that purpose as well, and yeah. Yeah. A few different things like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

But I'm not asking for opinions. You're a Bible translator. This is like you're on the on the mat here. So you're the first top three. You know, like someone at my church small group might be like, Well, I like this translation, well, I like that translation, but you've got like a little bit more expertise of like this is what I like about this translation, this is what I don't like about this translation, after looking at it slightly more critically as a translator.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

So that's what uh that's what we're after. So what he's actually saying is because you're a translator gives you position of power to to exert some sense of actually, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:06

Well, I I actually think that there are heaps of great translations out there. And they they all have different priorities. Um so yeah, it depends what what you're looking for in a translation to some extent. But okay, so for me personally, I love the new revised standard version. Um there's an updated edition. N RSV, yeah. The update edition from 2021, I think it was.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Um so 32 years after the original. And the the reason that I love that um is because it's been put together by like a big group of scholars from Protestant churches, Catholic churches, Orthodox, I think there's Jews as well. Um so it's an ecumenical translation, um, and as a result, you don't get the kind of theological bias that you do in some other.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

So an example of theological bias would be what? I mean I I've got something in my head, but but what would be something that you'd see on a.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

It could be gendered stuff. Oh, I guess. Um how how to translate gendered passages, how to translate certain pronouns.

SPEAKER_03 21:12

Like an example might be uh when Paul says brothers in the Greek. Yeah. He obviously means everybody.

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

Right. Brothers and sisters, children and elderly.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

But it's a feature of the language that the masculine plural refers to. It can just be masculine plural, but it can also be a few.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

So what would the NRSV do with that?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Um the the NRSV goes for inclusive where it's appropriate. I mean, if it's perhaps if it's not clear or if the male is intended, then they'll go with them the male pronoun. But yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

But it doesn't get strung up by an over exertion of gender inclusive.

SPEAKER_03 21:52

And then ignoring possibly the Well, because you've got Catholics and Orthodox in there too, and they're like pretty hierarchical when it comes to certain gender.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

When you get into sort of notions of language around atonement, then there's shifts there too, aren't there?

SPEAKER_00 22:06

Yes, there probably are. I can't say that I'm aware of um how specific translations do that, but there could well be. I mean, there's if you're going to the other end of um the spectrum, like the Jehovah's Witness translation. Oh New World Is it the New World Translation? Is that what it's called? Yeah, I think it is. I think um like they they have really interesting translation choices that try to um I mean you in the New Testament, you know, we don't have clear references to the Trinity, say, but there are little like little elements that point towards a Trinity. They'll they'll kind of squash those things. Um so like John 1 verse 1, the word was uh God.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Yes, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Um and yeah, a few things about yeah, create Jesus um in Colossians one, um talking about c creation and all other things are c were created through him, um, because Jesus was a created being in their perspective.

SPEAKER_04 23:10

Yeah, so things like that.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Um I don't think you're gonna find that kind of thing in the NRSV because it's got that agreement from um So it's a true that's a really good line.

SPEAKER_01 23:20

It's a ecumenical. Yeah, and it comes out. Uh editorial board is an ecumenical board, therefore the the the text is a is a broad economical holy Catholic Bible. Yeah. In the true sense of Catholic.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

And I really love that about it. Um it comes out of the America, um, the National Council of Churches there.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:42

Um and the Friendship Press, which I love. What a great name, yeah. The Friendship Press. Um, the Friendship, that's very good, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 23:51

I wonder what what translations the Mormons use.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Oh, I looked that up actually. Um I think they tend to use the KJV.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 24:01

But they also um for for younger readers, there were a few others that they suggested things like the ESV and the NIV and like quite standard translations.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Do you say Mormons? I said Mormons, yeah. Well they don't like Mormons, uh Latter-day Saints.

SPEAKER_01 24:15

But yeah. But I thought they had their own text.

SPEAKER_03 24:19

Um they got their Book of Mormon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

But I guess they don't have their own Bible translation, which I didn't realize.

SPEAKER_01 24:26

Well, you think they would because they're such a wealth organization. I always thought the Book of Mormon was their Bible. No, no, they got both.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

They've got both, yeah. Have they? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

So they still have a Bible.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Yeah, yeah. And they just say it's almost like so you got the Old New Testaments, which is got the Word of God, but then you get the Book of Mormon, which is like a translation of the Word of God. And so, uh correct me if I'm wrong, Claire, within Mormon theology.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

I don't know much about it.

SPEAKER_03 24:51

Um, you like for us for Christians, the New Testament is in an is the interpretation of the Old Testament upon the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. That's what the New Testament is. So, but for the Book of Mormon, for Mormons, Jo Joseph Smith is basically like that for the entirety of the Old New Testament. It's like an interpretation upon this revelation that Joseph Smith was given. And so that's so they're one more separate move. And that's the Book of Mormon. Yeah, they don't take seriously the whole passage that Jesus is the final word of God because there's another word through Joseph Smith.

SPEAKER_00 25:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:25

Yeah. Anyway. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Yeah, I don't know a great deal about that.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

No, I didn't know that. Think that's interesting. I I listened to this uh I don't know how I you know, when YouTube was just starting out, um, there was this apologist, Mormon apologist, anti-apologist who was Christian, used to be Mormon for years, and he had like this televangelist show on YouTube that was basically him at a desk just taking in calls from Utah and people just telling him to stop talking against Mormonism and him just like yelling. It was so entertaining. But I learned a lot about Mormonism as like a 15-year-old kid from YouTube when it was first happening. It was awesome. It was like it was like WWE Mormon talk show.

SPEAKER_04 26:05

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

It was like this guy was like a massive, like strong dude too, with like flowing blonde hair. Anyway, it was a it was it was very American.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:14

So NSRSV.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:17

Oh yeah, I was gonna say about that one as well. Um sorry. They they also include women in the the scholars who are doing.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Oh, so so the editorial board is is ecummunical and it so it gender inclusive in the sense male women. What about race? Yeah. That's is that a name too?

SPEAKER_00 26:37

I think there's limitations there. Um I don't think.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

Or that which should be educational limitations, do you think?

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Uh I mean I I don't know. Um but there are yeah, they they try to have different um different ethnicities represented. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:54

For the cynical person listening who might be more anti-establishment and the elites are trying to push everything down our throats, whenever they hear inclusivity, that's like a trigger word for people.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:06

Um it's a what? A trigger word for people on the further right end of the spectrum. Whether centrist right or whatever, just further right, however that looks, where people are farther left, that's a that's a wonderful word.

SPEAKER_04 27:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 27:18

But for for Christians, like why is that a good thing for you? Why is that inclusivity matter for you?

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Well, I mean, as as a woman, um sitting in church, hearing the Bible read and hearing songs sung as well. When um when the believer is talked about as a male, it does feel like I'm not included. Um like I can think of some songs that that we sing in church. Um How Deep the Father's Love for Us. There's a line about you know, we're we're made sons of God or something. You know, which which comes out of the Bible.

SPEAKER_04 28:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:01

Um and it's and it's an an important theological piece because we're talking about um inheritance and in in the Greco-Roman world it was males that inherited and so on. So there's there's elements where that's important, but there's also a time where you as a woman you feel like, oh, like where am I in there? Um yeah. So I guess that's where I would come from. Yeah. Um I'm just as much a a believer and just as much um I I benefit just as much from Jesus as any man does. So Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:33

And and and perspective does matter. Like different perspective when it comes to translation matters because maybe we should dive uh not dig move in a little bit in this direction. What actually is a translation then? Like, is it can you get like is there an exactness that you can actually get from the original language of the Greek and the Hebrew into your spoken heart language? Or is there a like or is there a level of dynamic tension there?

SPEAKER_00 28:59

In a sense, translation's impossible because there's always going to be elements of the original text that you can't represent in the new language, especially if those languages and those cultures are like far removed. Um if they're sort of neighboring languages, it'll be easier. Um but when you're talking about you know Hebrew to English, that's we're so far removed from that language and that culture. Um so in one way, no, it's not possible. And there's this um Italian phrase, um, I can never quite remember the words, but essentially it's saying a translator is a traitor because there's no way to really translate. And yet, we do translate.

SPEAKER_03 29:44

Um alternative, not having it, or yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:47

Yeah, so on another level, yes, of course we can.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

But you have to understand that there's gonna be um there's gonna be things that get lost potentially, and then things that may get added um as you translate. So that we'd love to think that there's an easy way to do a one-to-one correspondence and for it to make sense, but that's just not how languages work.

unknown 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah. If we did if we really did a one-to-one, um, we would have this really ugly, awful translation, like a like an interlinear Bible. Imagine just reading an interlinear Bible um where it's trying so hard to represent every single morpheme of the text. It is there not wouldn't make a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

A theological piece in this too, is that while we have the text and it's and absolute scrutiny in terms of translation, there is the sense in which the spirit is always giving life to the written text. Yeah. In other words, it doesn't live without the spirit giving life to it. But yeah. That's a fair comment, isn't it? I mean I don't know. Yeah. Like everything's in interpretation. Like one what I mean, even when I read something, you you have the same people reading the same text. Yeah. And the and so their own world is coming to that text. And so the way they're reading that text, their own story and all the rest of it. They're reading it in and so in I guess in the sense that's where the we just don't take our private little revelation away with us. But the sense that the spirit works in the community to discern what might be relevant and true for us. Yeah. Yeah. As best as we can. Yeah, I I think that's exactly right.

SPEAKER_03 31:24

Well, because if if you didn't have that, then there'd be no meaning in the text that's actually put into the world.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

And I believe that, and then I also think yet there are communities who really go wrong sometimes. And and so how does that work out?

SPEAKER_01 31:37

Which could be a really bad translation, couldn't it?

SPEAKER_00 31:40

Yeah, yes, yep, and then you're not going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

So the the weight on the translator, the role of the translator then becomes really, really important. That because you don't know down the track further, a slight miscalculation on on the text could actually create a own h heretical deviance within a group of people.

SPEAKER_00 32:03

And that that could happen without translation as well. That can just happen if we're reading the the Hebrew or the Greek, right? Um if someone misunderstands something or takes something out of context or whatever, yeah, you can get crazy interpretations.

SPEAKER_03 32:18

So every every translation is an interpretation. One of the one of the coolest things that I learned throughout some of my PhD research is that is that if if there was such a thing as a word-for-word um translation of anything, even your experience in the world, we would have to have an infinite amount of words in a vocabulary to actually describe things in the world. Because there's an infinite amount of experiences and things to know. But that's not the case. We've only got probably what, like a few hundred to maybe a thousand English words that are used routinely. And so context matters. And so a word can mean so many different things dependent upon the semantic context it finds itself in. Yes. And that's where interpretation comes in. So what is that word actually doing in that context? And that's probably why, not to speak for you, we have all these different English translations. Is because they're people have a different sense of what the word's actually doing.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Yep. Yeah. And people think, oh, we could do that a bit better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

So I'm thinking here, ENSV, what's another one? Yeah, yeah, what's a good one?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Okay, I also like the new international version of NIV.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I like the new international version.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Yeah, and that that would be really easy reader, isn't it? Yeah, that that would be more on the meaning-based side.

SPEAKER_01 33:30

Um but you mean so as opposed to NRSV is more on the language sort of accuracy of language. Yeah, that's and that's more sort of like a the meaning, the essence of the phrase.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

So we I mean we tend to talk about formal equivalence and functional equivalence. So NRSV would be more on the formal end.

SPEAKER_04 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Um so they they're trying to not just tell you like the meaning of the Bible, but they're also in some way trying to represent how it's said. Um as best you can. I mean, there's some things that map quite nicely between the languages and other things that you can't really do that with. So that's that's like their priority. Um Bruce Metzger, I think he he said uh their sort of guiding principle was as literal as necessary, as literal as possible, as free as necessary.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:24

So they even you know everybody recognises basically that there's always a tension, there's a compromise, trade-off. Um but yeah, their priority is to represent the form as much as they can. Yeah. Yeah. So the NIV would be a little bit more down the other end where they're focused more on the meaning.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Um So what's the editorial board for that? Is that as economical as the NRSV?

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Oh, that's a good question. I haven't looked it up recently.

SPEAKER_01 34:51

No, but it's I don't think it is.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

I think it's I think it's Protestant, evangelical.

SPEAKER_03 34:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Yeah. And and you can see that in the fact that the NRSV has also got the Apocrypha or the Judero canon translated, whereas the NIV doesn't. Yeah, that's an interesting one.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

I know we could go we could get really sidetracked with that one because how come what time is it?

SPEAKER_00 35:16

Yeah. It's a good question because I believe Martin Luther did. The King James originally did. Um but it was known as the Jutero canon. Yeah, it was never seen as Yeah, it's sort of secondary in some sense.

unknown 35:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

It bridges the gap between the old and New Testament, very historically. Yeah. Well I mean I I pick this up because you know I use a app, um Pray As You Go, which is the Catholic app. Yeah. And, you know, occasionally, not a lot, but occasionally it'll be it'll be dipping into um that canon. Which is unfamiliar to me. And and and yet some of the some of the language is beautiful. Yeah. Does it ask you to pray to Mary sometimes too? No, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

It's just kidding. That was a rather interesting question. Because I I was listening to a Catholic app and all of a sudden the guy is like, let's ask for Mary to intercede on our behalf. No, no, I've never had that. I said I've never done that before. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:08

That's a new ex I don't know what I think about that now.

SPEAKER_03 36:12

Anyway. Okay, so NIV, it's it's readable and it's it's understandable, but a bit more narrow in in the ecumenical sense of Protestant, evangelical. But it gets updated quite often, like every decade or decade and a half, it seems like.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

I think so. I I can't remember when was it first?

SPEAKER_03 36:28

Was it 2014 as the last one?

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Or 2011?

SPEAKER_03 36:32

2011. Yes, I think 2011. Maybe so.

SPEAKER_00 36:34

At least that's the the last big revision. I'm not sure if they do smaller updates in between. Yeah. Yeah. Before that there was today's new international version, the T NIV, which um I I can't remember why, but everybody got sort of up in arms about that one. Yeah. The NIV 2011, I think it was a sort of a rebrand, and yeah, it's people are happier with it.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yeah. Yes, people are yeah, they weren't. Yeah, I do remember that. I remember the company. It gets very confusing today's NIV, NIV, and that's where it starts to get all rather on the case.

SPEAKER_00 37:05

And they've all got N and they've all got V in them, and it's just Can we just go with the Bible? So here we go.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

We've got NIV. NRS V. Yeah. And what's your third one?

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Okay, well I'll say another one. Um, the New Living Translation. Yeah. Now that's even further down the functional equivalence. Um that's that's one of these Bibles that is it's New Living Translation.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

So it it's designed to be easier to read.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

So like the Good News or So on the on the continuum, you've got NRSV here, you've got NIV here. Where is that on the continuum?

SPEAKER_00 37:39

The NLT would be further over this way.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Oh, so it's even more more in the form.

SPEAKER_00 37:44

Yeah, more um I don't it's not a paraphrase, it's a translation.

SPEAKER_01 37:48

But it's more akin to the NIV. Or more akin to the NIV.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

To the NIV.

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Yeah. Because what does it try to do? Like if Paul Because Paul's notorious, uh the Apostle Paul, for having ridiculously long Greek sentences. Yeah. And I think the NLT on a on a few occasions actually chops those sentences down into with full stops at the end instead of having fifteen verses of one sentence.

SPEAKER_00 38:11

Yeah. I mean I think to be fair, probably most English translations do, because his sentences are so long and he loves a good participle.

SPEAKER_01 38:18

Not the NIRSV though.

SPEAKER_00 38:21

I love a participle as well.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

I mean that's interesting the way in which so you know, Paul, you know, and the culture and language. Why would you do such long sentences? Oh, good question.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Yeah, that's probably a long A-grade, but it it might be a rhetorical thing. Um But yeah, so he he will like stack up all of these c um participants all of these phrases, participal participal phrases, clauses, um, and then yeah, have them the main verb, but he can kind of string a whole lot together before he completes the sentence. Um and it's just too long for English speakers. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Is it the way that so our the way that our minds work?

SPEAKER_00 39:04

I don't know. It might be a function of writing more than speaking. Yeah. It might be a a rhetorical type of feature. Uh yeah. We have to ask somebody who knows some more.

SPEAKER_03 39:14

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so you we have those three translations. What would you say is one, two, and three of those three, in your opinion?

SPEAKER_00 39:21

Oh, for me it's the NRSV.

SPEAKER_03 39:23

I think I knew you were going to go there.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Yeah, that's that's my favorite. I mean, it's great for reading aloud um in churches and that kind of thing. It's great for academic study.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

It is that's that's the go-to for academic study, basically.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Yeah, all all around the world.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

If you're hanging out with Catholics and Orthodox, they probably won't have a problem with it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:40

So that that's my top one. But you know, if that one's a little bit hard to to understand or it feels too distant or foreign, then maybe one of these other ones would be better.

SPEAKER_03 39:50

Yeah, so maybe two NIV, three NLT.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

Yeah, that that's where I would go. But it does depend what you're after in a translation.

SPEAKER_03 39:58

Because not every book of the Bible, I can't remember if I said this last time, but not every book of the Bible reads the same. And so you you might need an extra help along the way. Because I know for me, reading the book of Job is so tough in the NRSV. I can't do it. Um and and so what or even the prophets, to be honest, for whatever reason, like it doesn't quite draw out the imaginative poetic language that you would a paraphrase would. And so I went with Eugene Peterson for Job.

SPEAKER_00 40:25

I was just gonna say, yeah, I was just looking um the last couple of days, looking at a little bit of Isaiah 40, because that's where I've done so much of my my work. Um, and I was looking at these different translations. And when I looked at the message again, it's just so vibrant.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:40

Um, and unlike some other versions that we might talk about, um, he's not kind of inserting lots of interpretive stuff, but it's so poetic and it really grabs you. And yeah, I I love that.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

It just reads way better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Yeah, let's go to the other extreme. All right, yeah, here we go. I'm really interested in this one. I am sort of we've been teasing it way too long, so we'll probably skip to this point. I'm not gonna Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:02

What's a bad, bad one?

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Well, yeah, okay. So we wanted to talk about the naming.

SPEAKER_03 41:07

We've got the naming call translation. The passion translation is loved by certain sections of the passion translation?

SPEAKER_00 41:15

Yes. What's that?

SPEAKER_01 41:16

The passion translation is the maybe.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

We did talk about it last time, did we? Yeah, so the passion translation is um a version produced by Brian Simmons, who is an ex-Bible translator, um, ex-pastor, but now this is like his full-time gig is translating. So he's produced the New Testament, Psalms, Proverbs, Um, the Minor Prophets, and Isaiah and all of these things. Um so he hasn't actually completed the Bible yet. Um hasn't completed the the whole Bible. But you know, as you can guess from the name, it's all about emotion. Oh, yeah. Um so if if you read you read on the website. He's a Bible translator. Yeah, yeah. Um into I think a Central American language. Um Yeah, so he's he's highly charismatic. Um and he if you read on the website, like it's all this language about the passion and fire and um translating into the heart language and all of this sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 42:21

So he's obviously got a sort of has a theory. Yes. Yeah. And he's built his kind of thing on that.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yes. And and my main quibble with it would be that I don't think it should call itself a translation. He's adamant that it's a translation, um, but it's absolutely not um, you know, of the the quality of these other translations that we've talked about. Um even if you compared it to the message, right? Eugene Peterson never claimed that this was a pure translation. Yeah, absolutely. So he was very upfront about that, and it was for a specific purpose. Um people found it so useful, and so ended up becoming a big thing and getting it published and so on. But um it was a paraphrase. And yet he's he's also a scholar of Hebrew and Greek, and you know, so he actually can look at these languages. Whereas if you look at the the Passion translation, uh Brian Simmons freely admits that he's not really great at Hebrew and Greek um and Aramaic, but he says that his translation comes from those languages. He also claims prophetic revelation, um special, like new understandings.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

He's sounding rather sort of on the edge of charismatic Pentecostal.

SPEAKER_00 43:36

Yeah. So if you um if you go online all over the place, there's lots of clips of him talking, and yeah, he talks about how um God commissioned him to do this work and told him that he was going to give him um new revelations, basically.

SPEAKER_01 43:50

Umplugged, doesn't it?

SPEAKER_00 43:57

So there's all sorts of added stuff. In his translation, his so-called translation. Some of it he puts in italics so that you can identify, like, you know, oh, he's added this, like we have in some of our other Bibles, like KJV and I think the NASB and so on. But he's not actually consistent with that. Um he also constantly talks about the Aramaic, um, and he's talking about the Aramaic of the New Testament. So he's he believes in this theory, and he claims it as like standard scholarship now, which it's not, that there are original or the original autographs of the New Testament were mostly Aramaic. And we we know that's not true. There have been different theories about certain gospels and so on, but we literally only have the Greek. So when he's talking about the Aramaic in the New Testament, he's either talking about someone's um reconstruction, say of what Jesus said, and that's a legitimate thing that that scholars do to you know to work out what what the word play is or something like that. Or he's talking about um the Syriac translation, which is from the sixth century. So it's actually like five hundred years removed from the time of Jesus. It's not the same dialect that Jesus spoke. Um yeah, it's it's very problematic in a number of ways.

SPEAKER_01 45:22

Well, yeah, but I guess a person, you know, the average person could be overwhelmed by this claim to to um pontificate on what he might know as opposed to actually not actually true.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

Yeah, yeah. I've also heard him talk about how every Hebrew word is a homonym, basically, meaning that it has multiple meanings.

SPEAKER_03 45:46

Um given the context.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

But see, he's not he's not saying there's one that's one meaning appropriate in a context. He's saying all of the meanings are appropriate. Even so even at the end of um the Gospels or on the cross when Jesus says Teteleste, it's finished, he says, well, the Aramaic word is khalah, I think, or khala. And um that means, you know, completed or finished. But it also means bride. And so the last words that Jesus speaks before he dies is about his bride, the church. You know, it's uh it's this kind of stuff that he's coming out with. And that's not to say that that's all inserted in the translation, some of it's in footnotes. But this is um this is the kind of stuff that he's coming up with, and it's not it's not scholarly and it's not accurate. Like for someone who's worked in translation, worked with languages, it really surprises me that he would come out with this kind of thing. Um I don't see it as legitimate.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

So why i this is my theory as to why this is such a prominent translation is we have like an abundance of translations and all these translations are on one app. The UVersion app.

SPEAKER_04 47:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:01

It's not to say that the it's a good thing that the Bible is available massively in English. Wonderful. But the U version, Bible app, has this as a translation in the app, which makes gives you the impression it's among equals with all the other translations. There's no there's no criteria or no hierarchy of translations within the U version app. And so it's like, oh well this one sounds nicer.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

It sounds it sounds nice, it sounds really nice. And it's sort you know, he's really emphasizing, I guess, that I don't know if he's used these words, but that it's like God's love letter to the world. So it's this kind of passionate, loving language is coming out everywhere. Um and yeah, in a way that that flattens the Bible. The Bible speaks with many different voices, um but he's intent on getting this passionate, loving tone through throughout the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 47:57

So I could probably guess what your next translation is gonna be. I'm gonna guess if that's okay. Because you said that he thinks that a word has within it multiple meanings that are legitimate in all contexts, is essentially what he's saying. And so another translation that does that is the amplified version.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

Is that your other one or no? No, it wasn't but let's talk about that one for a second.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Let's talk about the amplified. So I I haven't spent a lot of time in it. All I can say really is that I've tried to read it before and just found it so difficult, so sort of clunky, like you're getting stopped.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

It is really clunky, though.

SPEAKER_00 48:33

Yeah, you get stopped every every couple of words with like a whole range of m possible meanings.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

It's almost like a uh uh choose your own adventure.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:41

With the Bible. It's just like I like this word here and this word here.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

You can go through with a highlighter and be like, oh, I like this word and this one and this one.

SPEAKER_03 48:48

But then it but the fallacy, what's the so what's the fallacy, translation fallacy with the amplified word gives you like five words for that one word that you could use it to be like?

SPEAKER_00 48:58

I guess it's this idea that um a p a particular Hebrew or Greek word has multiple meanings.

SPEAKER_04 49:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

And you can just kind of choose whichever one you want in in every context. I I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:12

I I'm saying this as someone who hasn't spent much time with the amplified.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

But I know as a student in of Hebrew and Greek back in the day, um, I would like you have those flashcards. I don't know if you remember that uh when we used to study Hebrew like that, have the flashcards memorize them, and you would be like, Oh, give me a Hebrew, like uh what's the Hebrew word for breath or wind? Um nifish. Uh ruah or nifesh. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Right. And then but on that on the flashcard for English, you'd say, oh, spirit, wind, breath. Yes and then so you you falsely think that that word in the Hebrew means all those things all the time, which it doesn't mean all those things all the time necessarily. Because sometimes it's talking about the spirit of God, sometimes it's talking about literally like actually just the wind flowing.

SPEAKER_00 49:55

Yeah. And sometimes it is genuinely ambiguous.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

And sometimes it's purposefully ambiguous. Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:02

And so I think the amplified version is this somebody went through the Hebrew and the Greek flashcards and was like, oh, let's just do this for the whole translation.

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Yeah, maybe that's it. Let's put the flashcards in.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

Sort of 40 years ago it was around quite a lot. I mean, I must have been, I've got a copy. I've never used it.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

It's alright. You don't you don't need it. There's better resources online for like actual textual words. Definitely like Logos Bible software. Awesome. You actually get to hover your mouse over the Hebrew or the Greek text, and it gives you the parsing of the word and even what they would consider to be the actual sense that it's trying to say.

SPEAKER_00 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

We wouldn't we wouldn't expect English to do the same thing, really. But I guess none of us are really interrogating English to the same degree. Because it at least for native speakers, it's just natural. It comes naturally to us. But yeah, we we allow English words to mean lots of different things and we don't expect them to mean everything at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 50:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

So here we go.

SPEAKER_00 51:00

Oh, I I was going to say something about the passion. Oh, yeah. So you said in your version it's included by and just alongside all the others. Yeah, that it is because I was reading it. Bible Gateway actually took it down.

SPEAKER_04 51:12

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Oh, because they had so yeah, they they were so concerned about the so-called translation. So it's not on Bible Gateway, um, which I think is really interesting. And a note from Bible Society. Uh so Bible Society um owns the manor stores. We do sell the passion, but we're really specific about calling it a paraphrase. So if you go on our website, and I think even on the shelves and so on, we say that it's a paraphrase. Because yes, we know people like it, um, but yeah, we don't want it to be held at that same standard.

SPEAKER_03 51:44

That's a good aside. That's a good clarification.

SPEAKER_00 51:48

Um I think that's helpful. And and if Brian Simmons called it a paraphrase, I would feel quite differently about it. Yeah. But because he's claiming that it's um it's a pure translation.

unknown 51:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

Yeah, it's a problem there.

SPEAKER_00 52:01

Huge problem.

SPEAKER_01 52:03

All right. So next one.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

What's the Oh well the other one I was thinking about was the New World translation that we touched on before. So the Jehovah's Witness one. Yeah. I don't think so. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:16

I was gonna say that's sort of ready to do that. Yeah, okay, but there are lots of Jehovah's Witnesses out there, so what's going on with that translation? Why is there a problematic thing there?

SPEAKER_00 52:24

Well, in probably in most cases the translation's fine. But when you get to these key bits, like I mentioned about the Trinity, about the role of Jesus, who Jesus was, um they they're changing things or adding words in to to kind of suit. And and they might have quite clever arguments, um, but certainly not the scholarly consensus behind them.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

I don't I don't have a great deal to say about that.

SPEAKER_03 52:52

So you you you come outside the realm of possibly creed or orthodox theology through that translation implicitly, because of what they don't major on, like Trinitarian theology, possibly like uh the incarnation of Christ being one hundred percent man, one hundred percent God. Might be minimized a little bit there. Uh well what are they doing to Philippians chapter two? It's pretty it's a pretty important Christological passage. Yeah, yeah. Doesn't drive with their their theology.

SPEAKER_00 53:18

No, I I imagine it doesn't.

unknown 53:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 53:21

Were you gonna say Graham?

SPEAKER_01 53:23

Oh, I just I was thinking about the editorial board, you know, who who sits on the the the that, they would have still an editorial board, and so that would be a an interesting tell with For the New World Translation.

SPEAKER_00 53:33

Yeah, my understanding is that they haven't made that public. So so you don't know the credentials of the the people involved.

SPEAKER_01 53:42

And and they're in life. And maybe that's uh maybe that's for our listeners, you know, for ones that are thinking about translations, is a very good point of discerning what is a good translation is to have a look at the editorial board. And that that is something that I do. Is it of course, yeah. Not who's on the edit, but what how's that editorial board represented?

SPEAKER_00 54:03

Are you talking about the New World Translation?

SPEAKER_01 54:05

Well, on any translation, to measure, you know, like I mean at at the at the pinnacle of you saying uh very good translations is the NRSV. Yeah. Look at its editorial board. It's extra.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Well, so yeah, you should be able to go onto a website, a official website, and see information about the translation, about the translation team or the scholarly review team, the editorial team.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Does it tell you anything about the process?

SPEAKER_00 54:28

Um of them do, yeah. Yeah, some of them do quite a lot.

SPEAKER_03 54:31

Um They spent 40 days in a dark room at the merge until they had the Bible translated.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

The updated um edition of the NRSV, like they've got a list of all of the different people involved, which books they were responsible for, what their area of expertise is. Um so you can see all of that kind of information. Um yeah, and I I really like the NRSV. There's great people in the NIV. Some some people are in multiple.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Oh, fair enough. Yeah. Expertise, right?

SPEAKER_00 54:58

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Um and and we did briefly talk about the ESV part of the.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

I wanted to bring that up. Yeah. Yeah. If you what's the uh English standard version? Yeah, yeah. That's a kind of one possible.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

If you look at the ESV and the NRSV next to each other, quite often they're identical because both of them build on the revised version.

SPEAKER_03 55:19

Right. Um, okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

When was that published? I can't think now. So that's kind of where they've Interesting. That's where they've started. Yeah. Um so they're not like they're not new translations, um, they're revisions, both of them, I guess. Um but yeah, if you look at the English Standard Version information about who's involved online, it's all men. Um and I think everyone is of complementarian persuasion.

SPEAKER_03 55:48

Okay, so it's a very formed, very Protestant or evangelical background.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And so that comes out in the translation. And it is a really great translation in a lot of ways, but personally I would deviate on the like inclusivity language. Um maybe not in every single case, but yeah, that that's where that that's the bit that concerns me is that women aren't involved. Well, previously I had this big long list of people who were involved, and it was like a hundred and something people, and there were three women who happened to be wives of other people involved. And um yeah, to me that's concerning and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:27

And like one of the conspira we're gonna talk about conspiracy theories for a second. There's like a big Bible translation conspiracy theory to kind of close off. And from what I understand, for much of church history, a lot of the female names in the New Testament that are associated at the end of Paul's letter to the Romans as one being a I think it was a deacon, another being an uh an apostle, and then a a third person who was rather prominent. Like one they were all translated as being male with the with the S or the the Sigma at the end to make it more masculine as opposed to feminine with the alpha at the end written in the Greek. And it's only I don't know when it was pre-translated, but for much for a large chunk of church history, that translation was translated in the Greek and kept in the Greek manuscripts as a masculine until later manuscripts revealed earlier rather manuscripts revealed that actually these were women. This one woman was called an impossible by the Apostle Paul. And so you might be thinking, well, diversity doesn't matter. I'm like Yeah. Do you a part of me is like, well, do you want your Bible to actually stay as true to the autograph as what it is? It's easy for institutions to corrupt things based upon political, ideological, uh gendered uh ideologies, whether it's left or right.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 57:49

Yeah. When I learned that, I was like, oh my gosh. Because they couldn't, they had no theolog. I imagine they had no theological category for a female apostle, as called by Paul.

SPEAKER_00 58:00

That's fascinating. I mean, Paul's a tricky character, isn't he? He's tough. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:05

Maybe we should have you back on to talk about egalitarianism with Paul. I don't know if I know enough, but he is complicated because like I I don't I'm not gonna go too deep into this. I had a conversation with somebody about complementarianism, egalitarianism, and and I said, actually, you need to be you need to begin with the New Testament, and not just the New Testament, you need to begin with a hermeneutic, like your hermeneutical lens, because that is going to actually position how you translate those sticky passages. And I'm gonna and I told this person there's no such thing as a plain reading of scripture. You need to throw that out immediately. There's no such thing as a plain English reading scripture. And so I said, I know Paul says this in 1 Timothy, I know he says this in 1 Corinthians. 1 Corinthians is easier to deal with than 1 Timothy, sure. However, look at what he does in Romans. What do you want? Do you want to do what Paul does or what Paul says?

SPEAKER_00 58:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:56

Does he is he breaking his own rules? So automatically there's a problem that you need to solve.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Yes. And people go about solving that in different ways.

SPEAKER_03 59:07

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, that's the conversation for another day. Yeah. We really appreciated having you with us, Claire.

SPEAKER_00 59:13

Great to be here.