Why Risky & Difficult Discipleship IS Discipleship with Fiona Rush

In this conversation, Joey sat down with Fiona Rush of C3 Church Auckland to talk about discipleship—how to make better disciples and the need for more difficulty, suffering, and risk for formation to happen.

00:00 Introduction
02:20 Fiona Rush's Story and Calling
13:50 Bryce Crawford reaches young people
17:00 Discipleship and Education Principles
32:45 Discipleship though suffering

Podcast hosts are Greame Flett, Jonathan Hoskin, and Joey Millington.

The opinions expressed in this podcast are solely those of the individuals expressing and do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of any affiliated organisations or ministries.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

But I think intentionality about what is going to help your people follow Christ more faithfully, who's connecting with them and helping support them is really important. So the hardest things you've walked through are the things that have changed you the most. Yeah. And we are trying to avoid hard. We're trying to make it easy. As parents we're trying to make it easier for our kids so they don't have to struggle, but the irony in that is that it's the struggle, it's the hard things that form us into better followers of Christ. But I don't think as a church you can programatize that.

SPEAKER_04 0:35

The things that you practice, the things that you do actually change what you believe. And I do I do think I think there's a sense of like less risk taking. Oh, for sure. As a result of just this overall public consciousness of health and safety. Uh I don't I know it might be a false dichotomy. This conversation was primarily about the education of discipleship and how we should approach discipleship from an education outcomes perspective. But it also went into a lot of different areas, especially near the end. We had a wonderful time. I got to know Fiona on a personal level, a bit of her story, but also we went into what does it really mean to follow Jesus and how should we approach suffering and uncomfortability within discipleship? I am really happy to publish this episode and for you to get to know Fiona Rush a little bit more. Anyway, here's that episode of Lunch on the Way. Well, Fiona, I'm really glad that you're here. And I don't you know what I we have tons of things that we could talk about. We're kind of just jumping in. Uh I I hope it's not a mystery to people who listen. But uh we this is not lunchtime. This is eight o'clock in the morning. This is when we can kind of cram things in. You have a tea. I was gonna get a coffee, but I'm I need more water than coffee. Yes. Coffee with my treat once we're done with this. But initially, uh, we want to talk about some like discipleship and education stuff that you've been learning and how that has impacted your church as you've been leading it, and how you see discipleship and how education helps with that. So we will get there eventually. But first, I want to get to know you a little bit. Because we work together, you're the head of what's your title here at Laid Law?

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Uh Comms and Marketing. Comms and Marketing. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 2:45

And so what does that involve? Other than comms and marketing.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Well, really uh telling the story of the college and helping people um connect into the pathways here. So study at Laid Law is the key messaging.

SPEAKER_04 3:02

And a lot of that is strategy. Like strategically thinking about how to communicate who we are to people who might want to study or be a part of what we do on some broad way.

SPEAKER_01 3:12

That's right. So we kind of our audience are Christians that want to kind of connect in their vocation and calling and faith. And I think it's a powerful proposition that I think people need to know about. So I'm having lots of fun um telling those stories.

SPEAKER_04 3:29

Yeah. And then you're not you you came into this job and you still work where?

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Well, my husband and I are the senior pastors of a church called C three Church.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Here in Auckland.

SPEAKER_04 3:41

Okay. Yeah. So you C three Church, and I am utterly confused as to like I know. I know C three Church is a Pentecostal charismatic, broadly speaking, church. Yes. But it's it's not a denomination. It's a church that's loosely connected with other three C churches. Three C. Three C C three.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

I think people get the C three part a little confused. It used to be called Christian City Church. Okay. And then people would call it CriC, CCC, and then there's so many city churches. So I don't know, maybe 20 years ago they uh ten years ago they rebranded into C three.

SPEAKER_04 4:24

So you're here in Auckland. So what does it actually look like to be a C three church in Auckland for your church?

SPEAKER_01 4:29

Yeah, well, our church is actually one of the first churches planted. So Pastor Phil and Chris Pringle, they started Christian City Church in Sydney, and then they had a big vision to have ten churches in major cities around the world. And we were the fourth one in that kind of vision of planning churches. And then now there's like six hundred and fifty churches around the uh globe. But yeah, it's a movement of churches, it's a relational um connection, and we all kind of look the same, but sort of not if that makes sense. No, it does.

SPEAKER_04 5:05

Like you when you run into somebody who's a pastor at a C3 church, you you do get the same kind of like cultural ethos.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

Yeah, and they credential us and there's oversight and structure. So it's we call it a movement.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

Yes. Well, my denomination says we're a movement as well.

SPEAKER_01 5:20

Oh, there you go.

SPEAKER_04 5:21

I don't know. I think it's more of like, we're moving, guys. Get up, we're moving somewhere. Yeah, we're going somewhere. And so how did that how did you get in contact? Like, how did you guys get identified as the pastors of this new site? Did you plant it or did someone else plant it and you take over as the lead pastors?

SPEAKER_01 5:36

Yeah, no, we took over. So our original senior pastors um planted it in maybe 18 years later. I got saved in that church. We were the youth pastors, and then there was the natural progression onto um the next stage, which of course we hadn't dreamed of doing. No, no.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

So was it like a tap on the shoulder, or was it like a bunch of other was it the tap on the shoulder first and then God kind of confirmed some things, or was God already stirring things in your heart and then the tap on the shoulder came later?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

I think we were ready for the next stage of leadership and we were talking about going and planting our own church. Um we'd done a whole lot of youth ministry, this thing called primal that had gone across the country. I've heard of this.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

I've only been here seven years and I've heard of this.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Yeah, it was extraordinary, like we had, yeah, a a youth church planted in every city of um the country. Um and so like there was this buzz around church planting, and and so we're like, well, maybe that's our natural next natural step. And then our senior pastors um wanted to move on and go into what they were wanting to do, and and and we got um given that marvelous and terrifying call. Yeah, because our kids were probably like three and four, so that was twenty years ago.

SPEAKER_04 6:55

Yeah. Um well I know like I've never been a lead pastor, I've only been a staff pastor. And I I can know theoretically, I know that probably once you assume that that position, yeah, that the weight of responsibilities upon your shoulder just increase. I'm in like I'm in a uh envious position. You really like that. I've got a lot I get to do a lot of fun things, and at the end of the day, I don't go to the board meetings in the evenings. That's right. And none of the compliance stuff, but you know, God has a sense of humor, so we'll find out what happens. Well, you know, you know, Joey could be your next step. Yeah, who knows? But so we're going back slowly. So how did you even like get involved in church ministry in the first place? You said you were saved in uh in that church. Yeah was that as a teen or as a kid? Like what did what does your faith story look like up until that point?

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah, so I grew up in a good home but not a Christian home. Okay. And then I made these amazing friends that went to church, and I think the day before my 18th birthday, I gave my life to Christ.

SPEAKER_05 7:53

Alright, that's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 7:54

And um never looked back really. Yeah. Um, got involved in everything, got connected in.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

But how did that happen though? Like you just how did you get from a good family? And I find I find those families, because my family was a good family. Yeah. Those families are the toughest to reach. Yeah. Because they don't there's no external pressure really go or that we can see going on that would make somebody want to take that step.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Well, my stor my story was like I had everything, but it's still, you know, like there's still something like you know there's more to life.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

And then you walk in, oh well, I walked into the church and I saw these people with purpose and joy and I obviously God, the presence of God, and I was like, man, I really want this. Like I need this. And then I I just had such a funny conversion story because the person who was preaching at the time was this guy called Mad Dog Mudfid, and he was like an ex-gang, like long hair, chains. I'm like this private school goody two girls, better than most Christians, how I've lived my life, and he's there, and he's just talking about uh I felt like he was talking right at me. So he was talking about, you know, not letting fear stop you from yeah, living your life for God. And I was like, oh my gosh, that was my biggest. I was just afraid of what people would think, and you know, blah blah blah. And it was yeah, it was a powerful moment. And I I fell in love with Jesus, but I had no knowledge of Bible, church, anything. I came in just fresh as, but I I loved I just loved God and and that was my moment.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

And so was that just you and your family or was did Yep. Yeah, yeah. So I think we're we're kind of similar, it's just really just me and my mum.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Right.

SPEAKER_04 9:44

And yeah, so it's in seeing kind of what ha what God does with that. So after you become a Christian at 18, let me guess, you went off to like Auckland University. Yeah, and then what'd you study and what did you go for?

SPEAKER_01 9:56

Uh I did a um a conjoint degree. I did an arts, English, and commerce degree in economics, and then I did an honors urine uh economics. So yeah, I did five years of study at um uni.

SPEAKER_04 10:10

Did you go into finance after that?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

No, I went into a marketing role, which is so weird because I just my friend's father was working at a company and they needed someone over the summer, and then I took that job and then I just opened up and kept going.

SPEAKER_05 10:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Yeah, but it was a really good mix because I love um marketing because it's insight and numbers and patterns and strategy, but it's also creativity. So I've got this, my dad was an engineer, my mother was a music teacher. So I had this kind of web brain that worked, loves creative expression, English, writing, music, love all that stuff. But also my dad's was an engineer. Yeah. And I got taught the Pythagoras theorem at 10.

SPEAKER_04 10:53

You understood that this and this need to go together and move towards this to make this work at the end.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

So you're a very strategic thinker in that regard, as you love patterns, I love insights, I love data, which is people might think is weird. No, do you love graphs? I geek out on it. I love graphs. You love graphs. What's your favorite graph? Oh, I don't know. But everything to me comes back to economics, you know, opportunity cost, um supply and demand. Yeah. It's it's funny. I love it strange.

SPEAKER_04 11:26

Because that's like my other favorite topic. I I listened to a podcast called The Econoclasts.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Oh, really? Icon. Econ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

And there are these two German dudes uh who just uh give the economic take on what's happening in world events. Yeah. And I'm like, it's very interesting. And then anyway, what's happening on Iran right now? It's like, we're like, that's not what matters. This is what's actually happening. I'm like, I never saw that. And I'm like, yeah, if you view it through money, it's it's or the or resource. Or resource. Yeah. Then it's like, oh, things get a bit clearer. Yeah. Okay, so and then all throughout that, I imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, you are um serving at church because you just became a Christian. Yep. You're in the youth ministry, I presume.

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Cool.

SPEAKER_04 12:09

So what does that look like serving in in ministry in your 20s?

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Uh just driving a lot of kids rounds in cars.

SPEAKER_04 12:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah, picking up, dropping off.

SPEAKER_05 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Um, doing events. I did a thing called um Youth for Christ was really big at the time. So um they ran weekly events.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Yeah. So we had kids in for uh they'd fortnightly at so they'd do big events like uh Ice Cream Sunday or youth rally or car rally or stove for steel, and then on the off week they'd do kind of more like connect group discussions about God and faith.

SPEAKER_04 12:46

How has youth ministry changed from what you can observe now to what you experienced however many years ago?

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Well, we were involved with this thing called Primal Youth w that my husband um took on because uh back in our day youth was just about having fun and friendship. And so he was like, no, young people were sent out. They were they were carriers of the gospel, and so this thing that we did called primal, we actually got young people reaching young people and running services and leading worship, and we set up like these mini services, um, and they took off. So that was yeah, like a real change. But now today I I'm not quite sure where youth is at. It's got a lot harder.

SPEAKER_04 13:32

Yeah, wh wh why do you think it's gotten harder?

SPEAKER_01 13:37

I mean, I don't know. I think kids are busy, there's a lot of pressure on them. Um we're in a very secular culture that is maybe a bit more anti-church, but saying that we just had Bryce Crawford, I don't know if you've heard of that guy. We hosted him. Um and like the the church was full, full, like overflowing with young people. So that's super exciting.

SPEAKER_04 14:02

Yeah. Well, I think maybe a lot of the religious or Christian conversations are online.

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yes. Right?

SPEAKER_04 14:07

And so you actually don't know where they're at.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:11

And where maybe in previous generations it was more obvious to see where people are at because you could see who are you hanging out with.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:17

Or what's uh what's going on in your family with jobs, and like now it's a lot more hidden a little bit. So hidden.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

And like we had like I had even never heard of the do. He's got like 2.9 million followers, and I will like people they were there like two hours before the service, and like there were young girls like crying, which you know, I've probably got a problem with that. But you know, like they're crying because price was there. Yeah, like can I get a photo with him and can I say sit sit near him and be at the front? And I'm like, I've got problems with this, but it's cool to see that place people. I'm glad you're here.

SPEAKER_04 14:58

He's like the hairy styles of the Christian world.

SPEAKER_01 15:02

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:03

Yeah. Next level. Except he just opens up the Gospel of John and he's like, This is what it says, and women cry. What is going on?

SPEAKER_01 15:13

But they're obviously looking for something really authentic. Like I was really impressed because he wasn't preaching the Bryce Bryce Corford take on the Bible.

SPEAKER_04 15:23

He was just opening up the Bible and linking it to witness and down a bit more like just let's just actually go at what it's saying, as opposed to trying to make it feel or look like something.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Yeah, like I've got this new take on S Y Z or here's the latest theory on this Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:44

And so would you say your church is relatively young, or were you surprised at how many young people showed up?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

Uh I think we're we're really strong in young adults. Yeah. Um, but I think seeing all the teenagers, that was super exciting.

SPEAKER_04 15:58

Yeah. Yeah. And the teenagers, like fifteen years old, roughly. And they knew who Bryce Crawford was. Yeah. Well, I guess he's twenty-two, isn't he?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:09

Yeah. So they're twenty-two. You do reach kind of like a decade younger typically. Right if you're, I think, yeah. Oh yeah, twenty I know, I'm like twenty-two.

SPEAKER_01 16:19

But he I tell you, he held his own. I'm sure he did. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure he did. That was so impressive.

SPEAKER_04 16:23

He did post a conversation. He has a podcast and he posted a conversation with an Eastern Orthodox dude. Um oh last week or two weeks ago. And I haven't I haven't listened to it, but I'm like, oh, interesting. So he's also he I'm like, why he's 22 and I'm 33. And we're both moving towards like he's had different guests songs where I'm like, I am also interested in that too. I'm like, but I don't feel young.

SPEAKER_05 16:47

I'm like, I don't feel young. It's because you get no sleep.

SPEAKER_04 16:51

No, it's because I get no sleep, exactly. Yeah, I'm probably on my phone too much trying to rock a baby to sleep. Yeah. Um, so here, let's let's pivot a little bit to discipleship and education. Uh I kind of know a little bit of what you're going to say, but what I want to know, uh, what I want to ask is what does or let's make it a big question. How in your how have you seen your approach and with your husband as lead pastors, your approach to discipleship as a church, how have you seen that shift over X number of years? Because you said that there has been some shifts in your thinking and ways that you change things and approach things differently within a church and helping people mature. And what has this sh that shift looked like? What did it look like? Yeah, and what happened that moved you into a b a different space around discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 17:48

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. I think when COVID hit and people started to behave badly, um there was a lot of questions around like how well have we formed people to to be Christ-like. So I think sometimes you can just assume that people are growing in their faith and maturing. So I think that was one thing that happened. And the other thing for me personally was I did um this discussion, I did my master's in educational leadership.

SPEAKER_03 18:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:19

So um I was going on this um learning um journey, uh opening up research, and it was an education field, but I had to apply all of it into my context, which was the church. So obviously discipleship is about uh learning, is about people learning how to follow Christ faithfully. And here I'm learning about how to lead learning in organizations. And so the research around schools in terms of student outcomes, so if you like student outcomes, discipleship outcomes, the the research is the only thing that really shifts the dial on student outcomes is the um quality of the teacher in the classroom. So they've m messed around with um numbers of kids in classrooms, environments of classrooms, what they look like, content, curriculum, all this kind of stuff. At the end of the day, um students do better when they've got better teachers. And so, like, we should be investing into professional development of our teachers and making sure our teachers are trained really well to um help kids learn.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

And so for me, the the natural thing is like, well, how much investment are we putting into who are who are our teachers discipling our people in our church?

SPEAKER_04 19:49

So just to repeat, you can change so we're thinking thinking just the classroom with the kids.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

You can change the curriculum.

SPEAKER_00 19:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:57

You can change the number of students, yeah. You can change um how many breaks you have, how much outside play versus inside play you have, you can change almost everything. You can go for like a what is it, a Montessori type setup or uh free spirited learning and student-led learning or teacher-led learning or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

And you're saying that the the biggest variable or factor in outcomes for student learning is the teacher themselves.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:23

I'm not surprised.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

I'm not surprised I know it seems logical. Yeah. Um, and I'm not saying those other things don't make a difference, but if you've got scarce resources and you're wanting to improve student outcomes, you would think that we would pour all of our resources into improving our teachers. Because we know that that makes a difference, but we don't. We we we change classroom layouts and we mess around with student teacher ratio numbers and disrupt all kinds of things when we should be just doing one thing better.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

So let's ex Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 21:01

To me, it's it seems so obvious, doesn't it? Yeah. And so as a New Testament academic, I'm like, that is not a shocker to me. No. Because when you look at the Bible, you obviously see what did Jesus do? He poured into a small number of people. Like there were what in Luke ten, no, five, I don't forget what chapter anyway, he had the seventy or seventy-two he sent out, so there obviously was a larger group that followed him in kind of. We don't know what that looked like. Yeah. Then there were the twelve who were a closer group, but then there were the three within that who he really kind of pulled back the curtain on, right? And they saw the transfiguration and all that kind of stuff. And it just seemed so obvious. Like Jesus wasn't doing a curriculum. No, he wasn't doing a program. Yeah, and you can say, Yeah, the context has changed, Joey. Two thousand years ago it was a lot more you know, community based, and we live in a secular individualistic society, so things have changed. And I'm like, Yeah, that's that's true. But what you're saying is what from what you learned in the education sphere is that it's the leader or the teacher in the room that actually has the greatest impact.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

Yeah. So how would you map that onto like to church? How would you not maybe not what you've done, but how would you how would uh somebody who doesn't have that knowledge or thinks that that leader is important?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

That maybe the program's important, how would they typically attack change or like discipleship, you think? Because I imagine your church was doing that a little bit and then you've maybe invested more into your leaders.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

I think we've always found that it is a relational like process. I don't think we've actually ever done this program. I know lots of churches do. Okay, if we just do this program then everyone will spit out the other end fully formed. I don't think we've thought that but I don't think we were intentional enough about um training our our Kinect group leaders. So yeah like after those kind of things came together to kind of shift us in our thinking and just really upping our training for people.

SPEAKER_04 23:09

So what does that look like? What does it mean to up your training? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Like do you like it's it's difficult, right? Because you've got people that are like lay pasturing people, so we have small groups, we call them kinet groups. Yeah. Um but you've got so many different types of leaders like some people have been Christians their whole life some people are brand new to the faith but have great gathering skills um true. So so it's it's uh it's not a one size fits all because everybody's different.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

It isn't right and because it's not a program that you're like all right you've read you've all read this book.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

And now you are stamp stamp, you're a leader at the church and we can rely upon you for discipleship. Perfect. No everyone's different is what you're saying. So it's a bit more it's more relational.

SPEAKER_01 23:56

So even to say do this and it'll work is it's not helpful. I don't think so but I think intentionality about understanding what what is going to help your people follow Christ more faithfully who's connecting with them and helping support them is really important. So obviously we do run courses. Yes. So courses are important but it's more than courses and that was the other thing that I learned um one of the things that popped out for me was um creating these learning environments that actually are supercharged learning I suppose and that's the the content piece it's the learning of others piece and it's the doing with feedback piece. So um when we were putting together our next kind of lot of training we were trying to implement not just giving people more content like how to have hard conversations um you know stuff like that. Yeah well yeah hard conversations I imagine and also how to lead conflict or yeah how to support people how to how to um unpack a Bible how to um facilitate conversation like there's all these different skills that you need as a small group leader.

SPEAKER_03 25:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

So we went through and thought about our content which would really help our leaders then we took people through it but then getting in some connect group coaches so that people can get some feedback on how they're doing all of these kinds of things.

SPEAKER_04 25:31

Interesting. And so I find that like I'll just use this next season as an example. We're running Alpha which is a course or program. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Which we do too and love.

SPEAKER_04 25:43

Love. You're right? And so the temptation would be we just need you know all these you know you have you have a host you have maybe small group leaders with co-leaders you have the kitchen team obviously with the food and then you have people who greet help invite people in obviously one person or three people can do a lot of those different things but as long as you have all the pieces in place then it will just go for it. And what I'm learning is that yeah you can have a small group leader and you can tell them that to not answer questions just to facilitate conversation. But to actually do that is incredibly difficult. It requires a lot of EQ and requires not just a lot of training but a lot of experience in doing it. And what I've realized is it's like the training for people to to help lead others to Jesus through this program or course of Alpha actually requires years of them doing it and probably after they look back at their own experience not doing it very well to to be honest. Right? And then you hope that you know you hope and pray that despite all of our all of our failings that God's like God's message still goes through. Yeah. Right. Yeah yeah and and that's what I'm working through right now is like you want you want the you want your people to be here but in order to get there you have to deal with and I think not just deal with that's probably a bad way to phrase it you have to expect and anticipate a level of um not quite yet in order to Yeah we all start off doing what we do badly. We do.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

And if we don't get or we don't have the posture of wanting to get better at it we'll keep doing it badly for another twenty years. Yeah twenty years yeah so so trying to get culture in your church of of wanting feedback, wanting to learn wanting to get better at what you're doing is a really important culture to seed.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

Yeah. Yeah and I so if you're aiming towards like education, discipleship, that type of sphere, what specifically is your church trying to aim at when it comes to discipleship? Because we're all trying to aim at something and some and you love you said you love strategy and you love um seeing things move in a particular direction. And I know C three churches well enough to know that you do have a clear vision and mission and usually set of values accompanied with it. Yeah. So what is what is your church hoping for when you do all that you do and people come to faith. Yeah. Who do you hope they become this whole banner of discipleship?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah that is a big question. I think one of the interesting conversations that's happening globally within our movement is this um this idea of disciples making disciples making disciples so it's not just me replicating myself because of my proximity and relationship and investment into someone else and it stops there but it's um that person receiving that and passing it on I I guess to people. So there's this replication of um discipleship that we're trying to go after um and obviously it's just people following Christ faithfully.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Humility service generosity love compassion authority empower kindness you know like just who Christ is reflected in our lives. Yeah so it's an impossible task but it is a beautiful task um and you see people transform who are willing to go on that journey. And of course there's people that aren't willing and will stay stuck but the people that actually willingly say yes to God and to change and to the you know repentance process and forgiveness like just the beautiful privilege of seeing that happen is amazing.

SPEAKER_04 29:59

It is yeah yeah do you do you find that that there is the temptation to kind of like idealize discipleship or like the outcome of discipleship?

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Oh no I've been doing it too long. I started so naive and I thought everyone would be really nice and no one would complain or criticize um or be hard to deal with and then I've I've learnt over many years it's not that easy.

SPEAKER_04 30:28

Yeah because I find that there's this tension within church ministry I don't know maybe it's just because there's this tension in the New Testament to be honest, where you have like this this high ideal of what it means to follow Jesus and all the things you just listed and those are beautiful wonderful things. And then you you don't think that there's like deep struggle towards that and and I forget who the preacher's name is I've been listening to a lot of him online. He's in Atlanta um and he he talks about he's like are you are you struggling? Like are you do you feel like you're in the fight? Like whether it's like external stuff or just internal stuff that's like you're going through um and you feel like you're always like pushing up against uh external pressures or your own flesh. He's like congratulations that's what it means to be a Christian to follow Jesus. Yeah. It's like it's this constant yeah this constant struggle and he's like yeah Jesus says that his burden is light um but it doesn't mean that there isn't a burden there and that there isn't something to carry and that it's hard and it's difficult.

SPEAKER_06 31:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:38

Yeah and so that's kind of like lowered it's like so when it comes to churches like what are what are we trying to actually do? Are we trying to like give people a utopian picture of what I think the culture is pointing towards of like if you just do A, B, C, and D Then your life's gonna be simple. Yeah it's gonna be comfortable, it's gonna be easy.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

I I think we've I think we've probably fallen into that trap and I think the reality of life pushes you to um a different yeah diff different messaging. Like even in our church we're talking a lot more about just got issues um you know I think for ages and I personally I quite like it you know victory faith overcoming all that kind of stuff but recognizing that we all walk through really dark and difficult seasons and where's God and all of that and where's formation inside of that and all that kind of stuff. Yeah. One of the books that we've loved and used is how people grow not sure if you've heard of it John Townsend and Dr Henry Cloud and it's that's we've been to all our leaders just to get them to read it because one of the one of the things that was like it's all these things that help you grow into maturity in Christ but one of them is um if you're leading people is not to rescue people out of trouble. Yeah because we know that hard things form us and strip off us ego and pride and judgment and all those things.

SPEAKER_04 33:16

So when it comes to leadership development and discipleship within your church you certainly can't programatize that or else you'd be seen as an unsafe church would you totally would be you would be uh there might be some uh issues with the health and safety forms that you have to fill out every few months it's like so how do we intentionally help people suffer? Yeah red flag red flag might be there but but what but how do we but what you're saying is really interesting at least for that book is when people are suffering sometimes we shouldn't we shouldn't people have to feel the consequences.

SPEAKER_01 33:52

Jesus is their savior we're not their savior but because we're pastors and we love people we don't want people to hurt we go around cushioning um all the effects for people and I think that's not that we ever want we want to be present with people but we also don't want to it's the same with parenting. You don't want kids to not feel the consequences because they never learn. Yeah. Right? So it's a similar thing.

SPEAKER_04 34:17

You want other kids to kind of mess with them a little bit. As much as you don't want that you need them to deal with it.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

This is the parenting thing where everyone's being wrapped in cotton wool and sent to Christian schools which I I'm not against but I but I also feel like your kids have to learn how to be in the real world and so you have to be able to coach them through those moments. Yeah. You can't wrap them in cotton wool and expect them to be resilient faith-filled young people.

SPEAKER_04 34:50

Well what is it I think m my wife she's a kids pastor and she's gone to some of these conferences where they talk about how parenting has changed and you know how kids pastors kind of can navigate that. And one of the things is she said that um the helicopter parent was kind of like a little bit of like my parents are a bit younger to that generation of kids who are a bit younger than me. Those are the helicopter parents and then um now supposedly this is like 10 years ago now there's the lawn lawnmower parents. Ah what are they they take away every single every single weed and tall grass and resistance. Yes and then basically the kid just follows behind while all the barriers are taken down.

SPEAKER_06 35:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:31

Where before you know the helicopter you can judge that too but at least they're at a distance right with the metaphor. Yeah and they're like I can see what's going on and then we're hovering all over you. We're like a generation before like my parents' generation my my grandparents had no clue what was going on with their kids.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

No well I just wondered I I I hung out for hours and hours and hours with my neighborhood friends. Like my parents would not know where I was what I was doing and they weren't stressed out or anxious or worried about that. I know is that crazy we didn't have phones we weren't track tra traced we weren't tracked.

SPEAKER_04 36:11

I know it's a little I know isn't that I sorry you were off track. I'm like I know people like track their kids with like the Apple Air tag things and I'm like that's that's crazy. Sorry if you do that but like it's did you would you want that as a kid?

SPEAKER_01 36:28

No.

SPEAKER_04 36:28

No then why would you do that to your kids?

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Yeah fear based parenting and I understand it because there is a it's a hard world out there. Yeah yeah but your kids can navigate these things with your support.

SPEAKER_04 36:41

So if we if we put that through to discipleship and church ministry and leadership would you say like how can churches prevent that from happening like that parenting model from leaking into churches?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

I don't know gosh just yeah just having the conversations I think is super important. But keep having continual conversations about why you're doing what you're doing its consequences what that looks like what you're trying like you're saying what kind of outcomes what kind of people are you trying to um produce. So yes these um imitations of Christ these things you want to see the fruit of that in people's life but you also want to see them um confident and brave and courageous and facing the hard things.

SPEAKER_04 37:32

So I wonder I wonder if there's like like churches can just see like what opportunities are there for people to be daring in their faith within our church context. Yeah. And I've a and whatever that might look like it might look you know seemingly dangerous not like the body dangerous but like maybe psychologically dangerous. You know I know there's a church within our denomination who does uh street evangelism once a week. I think it's every Friday night or something.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 38:00

And it's like a it's a part of their discipleship process and they have some wonderful conversations people but I'm sure they have some very difficult situations, especially who they might run into who someone might be schizophrenic on the streets or something and then you have an 18 year old with maybe a 25 year old having to navigate that. And I'm like, yeah that's tough but you are so much of a better person for having gone through that.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:24

It's just such a yeah and I I'm just even in this conversation I'm like if it's the people if it's the people matter and those are the ones actually affect a lot of the outcomes then how do we actually how does transformation happen within the person? Because you can probably think of your own like your own story, right? Yeah there's probably some key moments for you that you're like yeah I went through this and that was like incredibly formative.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Yeah well you think the the hardest things you've walked through are the things that have changed you the most and we're trying to avoid hard. Yeah we're trying to make it easy. Everything is supposed you know AI is trying to make it easier for you to do whatever the thing is as parents we're trying to make it easier for our kids so they don't have to struggle but the irony in that is that it's the struggle as the hard things that form us into better humans and better Christians and better followers of Christ. So but I don't think as a church you can programatize that I love the idea of sending people out and doing street evangelism outreach stepping outside your comfort zone that that definitely should be part of it but I'm not sure you could let you say we're gonna make things so hard you'll make the headlines difficult church name is called difficult don't come because we'll make it hard for you. Yeah but it's true you mean you look at the um the Western comfort churches and then the churches that are under persecution and their strength of faith and their like like it's remarkable the difference in in people's willingness to follow Christ.

SPEAKER_04 40:09

Yeah. A Yeah no it you say A? A thank you Canadian to Canada. I yeah because I was listening to a podcast this is a couple years ago and um and this pastor had said you know we it's there's such a paradox going on because we're doing health and safety nights at our church that the government requires us to do and then we're the next week we're praying for two missionaries to go to Iran. He's like he's like this doesn't make sense. He's like this doesn't make sense and a part of me I know we're not that we really had too much of a topic to be honest but we're going off topic now. I'm just like I I under I I believe like compliance matters church safety matters we don't want any any bad stuff regarding like individual harm from another person to happen within the church especially systemic harm as well. However there's always a tension like the safer you try and make society the less resilient you're gonna make the individual and I think I a part of me wonders because that was the biggest culture shock moving to New Zealand was the health and safety. It's my Canada I think is caught up now but when I left I didn't even know the phrase health and safety. Yeah not even I'm not joking. And a part of me is wondering how much is it actually like government compliance that is leading our churches versus what we see in the New Testament and then God's Spirit leading our churches. I don't I know it might be a false dichotomy but you the things that you practice the things that you do actually change what you believe. And I do I do think I think there's a sense of like less risk taking as a result of just this overall public consciousness of health and safety.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Yeah for sure.

SPEAKER_04 42:04

Yeah what were you going to say you can push back.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

No no no I I'm not sure we're there yet I know in Australia like their like their governance compliance stuff is really full on. Yeah um and I think probably New Zealand churches actually need to catch up and get better in safety. Yeah probably um because we've got a duty to care for our people and make sure that they are safe but yeah there's always a tension at that board level of um you know like you need faith in the room and you need um you need to be risk aware but not risk averse so it's it's uh attention that people have to lead through.

SPEAKER_04 42:45

Because a part of me is like is I'm not a con I'm not a conspiratorial person. What? I believe that people landed on the moon okay there we go. That's my base level assumption okay people landed on the moon we'll go from there. I'm not anti-government alright it matters order matters however a part of me is like a church sending out a young couple to go plant a church with minimal finance and not knowing what's going to happen and not having things spelled out and having a job description that's way too broad will that be a offensive to like the policy makers in the government who say hey you're a registered organization and you know what I mean? Like there's there's things that just aren't congruent. Yeah. Where it's like but you need to you need to step out in these these different faith steps to to become the kind of person that God wants you to be so as you mentioned with your church movement so that you can help lead others into being all who God wants them to be. Mm-hmm and then who lead others who lead others who lead disciples making disciples. But you need that first step of like uncomfortable obedience to even get to become that person.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

You do. And you can't leave people places you've never been

SPEAKER_04 44:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:02

So yeah, we have to continue to keep that faith uncomfortable, trusting God, alive in our churches and not just make it a comfortable, nice come, be blessed, go home.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:19

And it's hard to do because our culture, we swim in our culture 24-7, and we get on a Sunday an hour and a half, two hours. And if people turn up to Kinect Group another couple of hours. So we live and as pastors, we live in that same culture. And we're fed ease, comfort, avoid pain, avoid suffering, um, do what's right for you, live you, uh you, you, you, you, you, me, me, me, me, me. And we have to counter that culture with kingdom culture, which is lay down your life for other people, trust God, be obedient, yeah. All of that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_04 45:03

Yeah, I want this is just me externally processing now and then seeing what time alright, cool. Um I know that in the early church this is a big leap, alright. I know I know in the early church that um during Roman persecution, which was ca came in phases and wasn't universal across the entire empire empire, but was still a reality for many Christian groups, that the kind of mark of like piety and like all in this was Christian martyrdom. It's like, and even some people pursued it because they saw it as like this like additional form of suffering like Christ, which you could argue is true, because Jesus died on the cross. Um but then once the Roman Empire moved Christianity into the religion of the Empire, then people are like, How are we gonna know who the real Christians are? How are we gonna know like who's really all in? Like, because now we don't have the threat of death anymore to weed out people who aren't and who are. And um and so that's when you started having a whole movement of like desert fathers and people just going and sitting on poles for 20 years and doing like crazy aesthetic practices of being like, I'm not going to I'm gonna eat only this type of food for like the rest of my life, or I'm gonna and then the monast monastic movement uh kind of flourished in medieval Europe uh throughout that period of time as well, as dedicating your life to Jesus in that way, in that aesthetic way. And a part of me is wondering, I'm like, what is what is the modern, at least in New Zealand, let's be very contextual, what is like the modern pious move? Which I think it is appropriate. People can take it too far. Sitting on a pole for 30 years might be taking it too far. Um But there is there are things that will like that are like cultural kind of like trigger points of like are you gonna do what everyone else is doing? Or are you really gonna how how are you gonna lay down your life for Jesus?

SPEAKER_01 47:00

Do you know one of the concerning things I'm seeing, and I don't know if you'd agree, but Christians are trying to um to do that to set themselves apart. They're wading into controversial topics and and coming across, you know, h holding a stand on moral issues. Um and I think the intention behind it is that they are trying to balk against um culture. Yeah, people are trying to s take these hardline stance to set themselves apart as I am a Christian, a true Christian, someone that follows the Bible, and I'm seeing a lot of self-righteousness and a lot of protest around some of these things. And I find that really interesting. Because I think you're right, I think people inherently um yeah, they they want to like show themselves uh show themselves or or maybe to themselves, I don't know, of of I am a true Christian. I'm not going with the culture and therefore I'm going the opposite direction of the culture, but in that way it's I don't know if it's achieving what they're wanting to achieve.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

I think I've observed the same thing. It's like a s it's like a Christian form of virtue signaling. And it's not to say that you should change your stances. No, yeah. But I think the thing that they I think the thing that is becoming um Because reputation now, because of this online world we live in, is so great, like not just your actual rep like who you actually are, that no one cares about that. No. They just care about who you project you are and who other people perceive you as.

SPEAKER_01 48:46

Which I find I'm s I'm not in that generation, so I'm like, I'm like, I can't get my head around that.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

Me neither. And I hate po I do not post personal stuff online because I'm like, I just I don't care. Yeah. Um because I can feel that temptation to curate a certain type of person who I am. Yeah, right. And so I do think there's a Christian temptation out of uh piety and commitment to Jesus to then curate a parti an a counter-narrative to the culture.

SPEAKER_06 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:12

As a way of saying, look, I'm so into Jesus and Christianity that I'm going to be outspoken and have my reputation slandered by the world, which is actually a really good thing.

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:23

And it's another, I think it is a sense of righteousness, uh self-righteousness.

SPEAKER_01 49:27

Yeah, it's so hard because I'm I'm torn because I'm in marketing, so I love the online space. I'm like, we can't withdraw from the online space because otherwise the narratives everybody's getting is culture and narrat narratives. So if Christians don't have a voice um and aren't visible online, then we're not going to have the impact um that a Bryce Crawford is having. Exactly. For instance. So yeah, Joey, get back on social media.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

No, uh I'm on I'm on YouTube, hello. I'm on YouTube. That's about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

But yeah, I I grieve the condemnation that gets that gets c that comes across from like taking those hardline stances. Yeah. Because for me those things the those those stands are true and biblical, but they have to be outworked in a pastoral context because everybody's got a story that needs healing and love and individual connection on.

SPEAKER_04 50:34

Yeah. I do, I I do resonate with that because I I don't feel the need to be outspoken on controversial topics. Um because there's always a thing going through my head of like, what is the hill I'm willing to die on? Right? And I think there are hills you should be willing to die on. Um, but I have that bar rather high. And so part of me is like, well, if it has to do with minimum my children, and then maybe as a consequence, other people's children that I know, then possi yeah, probably. Yeah. And then beyond that, and also obviously questions of faithfulness to Jesus is up there too. But when it comes to like these hot button social issues, I'm like, if I if if you actually are incredibly outspoken on these topics, it actually removes you from being able to to speak into other people's lives who may have have one disagree with you, but maybe they have participated in those things that you disagree with morally, but now they're not gonna talk to you about it. You know, so pastorally, you're already you are no longer gonna be able to engage anybody meaningfully on that particular topic for any redemptive purpose. Yeah. And I'm like Yeah, you know, so anyway, yeah. We're not protest people, are we? Yeah. No. No.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

Um I wonder if it's in me. It probably could be. But I it's it's not like I always got I'm a pastor, not a politician, and I keep reminding our people like my platform is for the preaching of the gospel, for the making of disciples, for the opening of them of the word of God. That's that's my thing. Yeah. And that's the Hillal die on.

SPEAKER_04 52:18

Maybe I protest to make the chip bag sizes bigger. I know it's outrageous. It really is. I go into packets and I'm like, why is this almost the same size as like an individual circuit?

SPEAKER_01 52:33

Can I tell you why? Because I used to be inflation.

unknown 52:37

Translation.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

Yeah, because the supermarkets will not um they will not um approve price increases. So they're only own you know, from suppliers. So the only way you can keep your products on the shelf is um reducing your cost, which is um selling the same thing shrunk for the same price.

SPEAKER_04 52:58

I just I'll I'll pay more for a bigger size. I just want the bigger size.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Or write to, you know, the foodies.

SPEAKER_04 53:05

This is the hill. I reckon. I'm on the hill. Sword in hand. That's funny. Yeah. Um what's happening as we close, what's happening in your church that you're really excited for this year? It's the start of the year. I know there's probably tons of things happening. You lead a church of multiple campuses. So what's happening that you're like, I'm really looking forward to seeing this.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

I'm really excited about seeing all these young people hungry and thirsty for God. We've had youth camps, we've had um, yeah, this Bryce Crawford thing, we've had open heaven, they just ran a um youth event, uh, our city for teenagers, Friday night in our um place. And there's a real um upswell of young people coming to faith. I think there's there's enough of they've experienced what's happening in the world, and I think, yeah, you can see a real excitement and love for Jesus. And I think for many years we've all been kind of, oh no, what's happening with our next gen oh no what's happening, where are they? Like you said, there there's this hidden thing going on because yeah, maybe they're not interacting as much socially, physically, but online there's all of these um influences that they're having, and and people that are yeah, asking they're still asking the big questions of what my life is about and who is God and why am I here, and to see that in the flesh coming through at the start of this year being amazing.

SPEAKER_04 54:34

Yeah. Yeah. So just broadly more young people coming to faith and getting engaged. Yeah, young adults.

SPEAKER_01 54:42

Um smart, clever. Yeah, thoughtful.

SPEAKER_04 54:49

Yeah. I've I'm not I've seen similar trends too. Like our church is only maybe like on average 160 to seven, one seventy on a Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_06 54:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:00

But even then over the past ten almost ten years, I'm like, I've noticed an increase in younger people and their dedication has increased significantly as well. Like probably the dedication has increased more than the people we've seen. Yeah. And so I'm like, yeah, something, even in smaller churches, yeah, something's happening.

SPEAKER_01 55:17

I think it's happening across all the churches, yeah. What we've been talking about. Yeah. Um, but it's exciting to see. It is, it's really exciting. That's the future of our our churches coming through. It's not just older people. Yeah. Which is cool.

SPEAKER_04 55:33

It is cool. That is an exciting thing to end on. Thanks, yeah, Fiona, for hanging out.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_04 55:43

Thank you so much for listening to Lunch on the Way. And if you've enjoyed this episode or any past episodes that we've published, please hit the subscribe button and like button on YouTube and the follow button on whatever podcasting platform you are using. It goes a long way. Jonathan Graham and I back in 2022 started this podcast because we wanted to have open-ended conversations that were exploratory and a little bit risky and allowed us to venture into uncharted territory, not only theologically, biblically, philosophically, culturally, but also anthropologically as well, to help us follow Jesus better and to think better about the Christian faith and our discipleship to him. And so we are so glad that you've been joining us since 2022. And if you haven't, we have a whole back catalog of conversations and episodes that I still think are very relevant for today.